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To: VadeRetro
VadeRetro says: "Nothing forbids. It's Murphy's Law in reverse. Whatever can happen, will happen. There's time and a nice warm soup. You not only haven't made a credible objection, you haven't made a comprehensible objection."

If you truly believe that "something" annoted one molecule next to millions with a special gift--and that gift had no effect on its identical (or nearly so in some cases), then you believe in a Creator. Congratulations.

VadeRetro says: Somebody says the magic word. Down comes the duck with the 100 dollars. The band plays "Captain Spaulding.

right.......

VadeRetro says: "There may be a few Catch-22s in nature, but they may not be the same as your imaginings. You have not done a good job explaining why anything is impossible here. I hope I've made clear in the preceding posts just how vague, rambling, and unscientific your objections have been. That's not the same as ignoring them.:

Care to refute my "imaginings?" If you cannot analyze my arguments, I guess you then cannot debate this issue.

VadeRetro says: To the extent I understand this, the Miller experiment itself already refutes it. Synthesis of more complex molecules continues happens in chaotic, mostly unpredictable ways. There is no complexity barrier. The ambient energy levels are fine for the continuous recombination, billions of parallel experiments every second for millenium after millenium."

Miller created certain non-polymerized, lower energy amino acids from polymerized precursors. You have not touched any of my objections to the creation of complex or endothermic molecules in the most-likely medeval system. Also, there were not "billions of parallel experiments" because the conditions remained constant as did the majority (if not all for the reasons I outlined) remained constant. This is the basic tenant of science: that an experiment needs a chaning variable.

VadeRetro says: The tasking here has moved quite a bit, from "Explain the handedness of bio molecules" to "Cook me up a cell in a test tube." I consider the goalposts moved. If you have nothing better, we're done.

You could not explain chirality without referencing a Creator (the one that "picked" a single molecule among millions, etc). You then tried to contend why this selective annointation is possible (with faith) and I refuted it with thermochemistry and entropic arguments. So while the scope of the debate changed, the argument at its core remained the same.

I would please ask that you address my actual scientific objections regarding thermochemistry and entropy before we proceed. Overgeneralized and illogical asides are not constructive. Neither are making a big deal about a single word: species (which works as well and was in context).

Though I do appreciate your effort.
220 posted on 11/07/2003 7:54:38 PM PST by Loc123
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To: Loc123
If you truly believe that "something" annoted one molecule next to millions with a special gift--and that gift had no effect on its identical (or nearly so in some cases), then you believe in a Creator. Congratulations.

All you do here is make it obvious where your difficulties in comprehension arise. As LaPlace explained to Napoleon why his text on celestial mechanics omitted mention of God, "I have no need of that hypothesis." Where is annointing necessary? Catalysts happen. Something somewhere will catalyze formation of a molecule identical to itself. When that happens, the world changes.

Care to refute my "imaginings?" If you cannot analyze my arguments, I guess you then cannot debate this issue.

But I have analyzed your arguments in detail. For some time now, they've been arm-waving chemo-babble from a person who cannot tell "species" from "isomer," abiogenesis (pre-replication) from evolution (post-replication). There's really no there there.

Miller created certain non-polymerized, lower energy amino acids from polymerized precursors.

No, he didn't. He made aminos in a very unguided process, a little warmth and some elecrtrical arcing, from simple gasses and water. He went in a simulated early Earth environment from inorganics to organics, which was the significance of his experiment. That you get even this wrong, that you claim he broke his simple aminos down from polymers, shows you ain't never never never gonna get any of this. Hydrogen is not a polymer. Methane is not a polymer. Ammonia is not a polymer. Water is not a polymer. With the main article of this thread right in front of you, you state this falsehood. Here, look:

Miller had applied an electric discharge to a mixture of CH4, NH3, H2O, and H2--believed at the time to be the atmospheric composition of early Earth. Surprisingly, the products were not a random mixture of organic molecules, but rather a relatively small number of biochemically significant compounds such as amino acids, hydroxy acids, and urea. With the publication of these dramatic results, the modern era in the study of the origin of life began.
You're being Ignorant for the Lord, so to speak. Who knows, of course, maybe you don't know what the words mean. A polymer is a long chain of simpler elements, like RNA or nylon.

When the slow learners in the third grade have trouble with long division, they don't advertize their difficulties as a refutation of the discipline of arithmetic. They may be lazy or a bit thick, but long division is there and it works for anyone who wants to learn it.

Your typical disinterested reader, encountering an article such as this one on abiogenesis may very well have questions or even objections which the article does not answer. Having no axe to grind, however, and knowing he is not the world's foremost authority, he probably makes some allowance that the scientists involved have made a far more thorough study of the subject in getting to where they currently are.

But not the creationist. Unlike the slow-learner third-graders or the guy with no axe to grind, his every confusion, even his ignorance, is proof that all of the scientists whose work he questions are wrong. He not only concludes this, but logs onto the Internet to announce his findings to the world.

It doesn't work that way. If you ever get truly curious, read some articles in the area. A good book is J. William Schopf's Cradle of Life, although Schopf's main claim to fame and the centerpiece of that book has been questioned: 3.5 billion-year-old "cyanobacteria" lookalikes in Australian chert may be geologic artifacts. For all that, it's a very good text on the early Earth and abiogenesis issues.

That's if you ever actually discover any real curiosity on the subject. For now, you aren't fighting to learn but rather to stay confused. You have thus picked a fight you can't lose.

222 posted on 11/08/2003 5:49:06 AM PST by VadeRetro
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