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To: Loc123
If you truly believe that "something" annoted one molecule next to millions with a special gift--and that gift had no effect on its identical (or nearly so in some cases), then you believe in a Creator. Congratulations.

All you do here is make it obvious where your difficulties in comprehension arise. As LaPlace explained to Napoleon why his text on celestial mechanics omitted mention of God, "I have no need of that hypothesis." Where is annointing necessary? Catalysts happen. Something somewhere will catalyze formation of a molecule identical to itself. When that happens, the world changes.

Care to refute my "imaginings?" If you cannot analyze my arguments, I guess you then cannot debate this issue.

But I have analyzed your arguments in detail. For some time now, they've been arm-waving chemo-babble from a person who cannot tell "species" from "isomer," abiogenesis (pre-replication) from evolution (post-replication). There's really no there there.

Miller created certain non-polymerized, lower energy amino acids from polymerized precursors.

No, he didn't. He made aminos in a very unguided process, a little warmth and some elecrtrical arcing, from simple gasses and water. He went in a simulated early Earth environment from inorganics to organics, which was the significance of his experiment. That you get even this wrong, that you claim he broke his simple aminos down from polymers, shows you ain't never never never gonna get any of this. Hydrogen is not a polymer. Methane is not a polymer. Ammonia is not a polymer. Water is not a polymer. With the main article of this thread right in front of you, you state this falsehood. Here, look:

Miller had applied an electric discharge to a mixture of CH4, NH3, H2O, and H2--believed at the time to be the atmospheric composition of early Earth. Surprisingly, the products were not a random mixture of organic molecules, but rather a relatively small number of biochemically significant compounds such as amino acids, hydroxy acids, and urea. With the publication of these dramatic results, the modern era in the study of the origin of life began.
You're being Ignorant for the Lord, so to speak. Who knows, of course, maybe you don't know what the words mean. A polymer is a long chain of simpler elements, like RNA or nylon.

When the slow learners in the third grade have trouble with long division, they don't advertize their difficulties as a refutation of the discipline of arithmetic. They may be lazy or a bit thick, but long division is there and it works for anyone who wants to learn it.

Your typical disinterested reader, encountering an article such as this one on abiogenesis may very well have questions or even objections which the article does not answer. Having no axe to grind, however, and knowing he is not the world's foremost authority, he probably makes some allowance that the scientists involved have made a far more thorough study of the subject in getting to where they currently are.

But not the creationist. Unlike the slow-learner third-graders or the guy with no axe to grind, his every confusion, even his ignorance, is proof that all of the scientists whose work he questions are wrong. He not only concludes this, but logs onto the Internet to announce his findings to the world.

It doesn't work that way. If you ever get truly curious, read some articles in the area. A good book is J. William Schopf's Cradle of Life, although Schopf's main claim to fame and the centerpiece of that book has been questioned: 3.5 billion-year-old "cyanobacteria" lookalikes in Australian chert may be geologic artifacts. For all that, it's a very good text on the early Earth and abiogenesis issues.

That's if you ever actually discover any real curiosity on the subject. For now, you aren't fighting to learn but rather to stay confused. You have thus picked a fight you can't lose.

222 posted on 11/08/2003 5:49:06 AM PST by VadeRetro
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To: VadeRetro
But not the creationist. Unlike the slow-learner third-graders or the guy with no axe to grind, his every confusion, even his ignorance, is proof that all of the scientists whose work he questions are wrong. He not only concludes this, but logs onto the Internet to announce his findings to the world.

That's good. Very good. You might want to add some of this to your "holy warrior" material. Or, perhaps better, make it a separate essay.

223 posted on 11/08/2003 6:33:25 AM PST by PatrickHenry (Everything good that I have done, I have done at the command of my voices.)
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To: VadeRetro
VadeRetro says: All you do here is make it obvious where your difficulties in comprehension arise. As LaPlace explained to Napoleon why his text on celestial mechanics omitted mention of God, "I have no need of that hypothesis." Where is annointing necessary? Catalysts happen. Something somewhere will catalyze formation of a molecule identical to itself. When that happens, the world changes.

But he is necessary under your model. There is no reason that--and I will say it again-- one molecule would suddenly be endowed with a unique gift amongst millions. If a hole region of molecules did somehow, then there are the intractable complications I mentioned regarding the catch-22 scenario (which is still refuse to address, or maybe cannot).

VadeRetro says: But I have analyzed your arguments in detail. For some time now, they've been arm-waving chemo-babble from a person who cannot tell "species" from "isomer," abiogenesis (pre-replication) from evolution (post-replication). There's really no there there.

I'm sorry, but you haven't even quoted them--so how could you analyze them. You made a big deal about me using the term species--a relevant term, though not the most precise. I have corrected this diction error but you are still hung up on it. Now please address my question in the original paragraph, replacing "species" with achiral/chiral molecule.


I said: Miller created certain non-polymerized, lower energy amino acids from polymerized precursors.

VadeRetro says: No, he didn't. He made aminos in a very unguided process, a little warmth and some elecrtrical arcing, from simple gasses and water. He went in a simulated early Earth environment from inorganics to organics, which was the significance of his experiment. That you get even this wrong, that you claim he broke his simple aminos down from polymers, shows you ain't never never never gonna get any of this. Hydrogen is not a polymer. Methane is not a polymer. Ammonia is not a polymer. Water is not a polymer. With the main article of this thread right in front of you, you state this falsehood. Here, look:

I made a terrible diction mistake here. I meant to say pre-polymerized (meaning before they were polymerized, not that they were polymerized before). Honestly, your rebuttal to this diction error is honest. I know they were not simply hydrolysized polymers--that is ridiculously apparent. I was meaning they were non-polymerized organic molecules. Sorry for this confusion.


VadeRetro says: [a diatribe of unwarranted ad homenims]

Are you sure you are not a DU liberal trolling here? I make a single (or perhaps two if you count the "species" word) diction error and automatically every argument I have made--without serious opposition--is discredited. That is not very honest. You have not touched my specific arguments at all, though you do give huge focus to specific wordings. I am beginning to wonder if you understand physics and chemistry at all, or if you just are reciting a set of talking points.

I would really appreciate you copying my specific chemical objections and then underneath telling me why those objections are not valid. Saying "it just had to be that way" or referrencing some cultural quotation doesn't help anyone. If you really have problems comprehending my specific arguments about thermochem and entropy then I could simplify them for you. I was just under the impression that you had some kind of scientific background to be able to debate this stuff. But since you continue to ignore specific chem/physics objections to the abiogenesis model I am led to believe that you have simply read abiogenesis talking points and just post the specific point prescribed by a keyword or heading.
229 posted on 11/08/2003 2:05:51 PM PST by Loc123
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