Halloweenies -- The ghouls of political correctness take the fun out of being a kid

The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette ^ | Saturday, November 01, 2003 | Francine E. Rose

[Willie Green]

Halloween is over, but I can still see beaming ghosts and goblins, witches and sorcerers, monsters and hip-hop stars parading around outside my local elementary school yesterday. They were the lucky kids; many schools offered only "harvest celebrations" yesterday.

The harvest celebrators saw Halloween as someone else's holiday. When my children were in preschool, both Jewish and Christian schools objected to Halloween. The Jewish preschool teachers explained to me, a Christian, that Halloween celebrated a Christian holiday, All Saint's Day. Though I grew up Catholic, this was news to me, but OK, no Halloween party in Jewish preschool. One year later, in a Christian preschool: no Halloween party because Halloween was a devil-worshipping, Satanic holiday.

[RipSawyer]

"The writer nailed it about kid's sports. Adults have ruined the whole experience."

Absolutely, Amen to that! I see it happening with my own step-grandchildren now. When I was a child we roamed the woods and fields and rambled miles from home and did whatever a child could think of. The last thing a small boy needs is his father supervising his play when he is five years old. Children have imagination, they don't need adults stifling that imagination.

[sfRummygirl]

If you read all of my posts in this thread, you will see that I am Christian now, and am laughing because of how stupid the craft movement was/is.
Hey, hop on the terri threads....I get called a bible thumper there....
The whole reason I was posting this in the first place, was to let people know that Halloween isn't as innocent as they thought.
Goofball.
And no, Beltain isn't Satan's birthday. beltain is for sex and crops and crap like that.

[sfRummygirl]

I'm just curious....would you like to hear my story, of how a fam trad and also trained witch knelt at the cross and found peace?
I don't testify to people unless they give approval.

[sfRummygirl]

I was commenting on the fact that you said Halloween wasn't a pagan holiday. I do not bash Catholics. Not sure where you were going with that. Not my issue.

[Willie Green]

I was commenting on the fact that you said Halloween wasn't a pagan holiday.

I never said that.

Halloween IS a pagan custom.
I said Halloween is NOT a CATHOLIC holiday.
All Saints Day (the day AFTER Halloween) is a Catholic holiday.
The Catholic practice of venerating saints has it's origins in the early commemoration of Church Martyrs. NOT in the pagan practices of druids as "nmh" insists on implying.

Not sure where you were going with that. Not my issue.

You were responding to my reply to "nmh".
I responded to you accordingly.

[sfRummygirl]

Well, regardless of whatever mix up I may have said, just to be clear, I never believed Samhain was a Catholic holiday. It's all pre-Christian.

[Willie Green]

Well I'm glad we got that cleared up.
I certainly agree that Halloween's pagan origins predate Roman Catholic practices.
My dispute with nmh seems to center around his insistance that the Church adopted pagan practices. That is not true. If anything, the flow of cultural infuence was the exact opposite, with Christian beliefs displacing pagan beliefs as the local populace converted to Christianity.

[sfRummygirl]

Well, the church did hold onto some small aspects of stuff, but the longer time passes, the more that goes away, too. I have to say, the idol worship gets to me sometimes. And then of course we have the Mexican Dia de los Muertos out here tonight, sponsered by the mission church.

[Willie Green]

Yeah, the close intermingling of various cultures and traditions over the course of centuries makes it sometimes difficult to discern what is actually Church custom and what is merely a facet of local culture.

[nmh]

Good try. But your rewritten history doesn't make it as truth although it is very creative.

[nmh]

I listed references at the bottom of my first reply. Feel free to skim the books at a local library.

[nmh]

I admit no direct experience with any of that stuff. I have listened to an sx satanist. He was rather interesting. Saraficing people is not a rare event. Babies are often used - ones no one cares about. If you speak to an honest cop, they'll admit it. I live in NJ and we have quite a problem with the satanic stuff. I include witches in that. In fact witchcraft is on the rise.

I'm sure I don't know much as opposed to you or others but enough to know it's real and goes on.

[LibertarianInExile]

"Today a growing group of people claiming to be of direct Druid descent, still practice their religion, including human sacrifice. Those in England still perform ceremonies at Stonehenge."

That's right, you didn't say there are Druids today doing human sacrifices at Stonehenge. Not exactly. You just said they were doing human sacrifices. And performing CEREMONIES at Stonehenge.

What was I thinking, twisting your words in such a CRAZY manner? Gosh, I take it all back, it's not the crack rock affecting your mind at all! You must have meant they were doing those human sacrifices in their basements and doing WEDDING ceremonies at Stonehenge. Gee, I'm sorry. [/sarcasm]

And as to me being partial to ANYONE in Northern Ireland, I simply don't have a particular favorite side shooting--I just don't like people who are out to slander Protestantism or Catholicism or Judaism or any other religion, and the Orange shoe fits you. I figure Martin Niemoller said it best in his famous quote about the Nazis, and I'll speak up right now.

That you recognize my post is an ad hom (you probably couldn't spell the rest--it's AD HOMINEM, and that was one right there, jackass--oopsie, there's another!), is miraculous, only because you consider your own post a wealth of logic, when it's essentially a jumble of unfounded claims and b.s. assertions to back up your main point, that Halloween is only because of Catholicism, and your intended implication that because this is so, Catholicism is Satanic. To have logical argument, you have to have evidence AND an opinion--and when your comments are grade A, 99 and 44/100% pure, unsubstantiated opinion, I have no difficulty in calling you what you are, a crackhead Orange who would go after a Catholic given any opportunity, even one as silly as this one. Yes, it's an 'ad hom,' in response to your umpteen paragraph litany of them. But it's a better 'ad hom,' in that I can point to your screed and use that as evidence for my assertions, as opposed to you pointing at imagined premises every bit as fantastic as Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny and evidence that doesn't point in the direction you want and twisting it all together to come up with 'Halloween is Catholic Satanism!' Oh, crap, Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny--that's another chance for you to jump on the anti-Papist Satanic holiday bandwagon...

So, to prepare the field for the inevitable comments to come, I can't help but say it again: you're an obvious anti-Catholic, and if you were posting this stuff about Jewish people or Baptists or some other Protestant group, you'd have been blocked already. Keep your little Balkanization attempts to yourself. Can't you just take advantage of private property rights, find others like yourself and get your own little ghetto, inbreed with your friends and not bother the rest of us? It sure would make it nice for the rest of us peaceable folks, who don't need you pointing fingers and stirring up trouble just so you can get your nice sheet and hood out of the dry cleaner wrapping.

[sfRummygirl]

WOW!
That's all I can say about THAT!

[LibertarianInExile]

The sad thing is I agree that Halloween has its roots in Samhain, as Christmas has its roots in other pagan events, as Easter does, as much of Catholic practice does. But when nmh trots out the 'Catholicism is Satanic' card, I'm sorry, I'm just tired of people here yapping about Satan and how people of X religion are Satan-worshippers, when the Lord laid down the Golden Rule and these so-called Christians should live by it instead of inciting hatred by pointing fingers. I'll be doing significant testifying next Sunday, but I'm not going to watch while it happens any more.

[LibertarianInExile]

Right, all the cops that don't agree with you that babies are being sacrificed commonly (the ones no one cares about, of course, which is why we so RARELY hear about this), they're the 'dishonest cops.' I bet you have an awful lot of dishonest cops in NJ. You must really distrust all those darn Satan-loving liars.

Because it's real and goes on doesn't make it 'not rare.' The dictionary defines rare as 'uncommon.' For you to say it's not rare means that not uncommon, i.e., it's common--and it isn't. There aren't Satanists on every block slicing up Gerber babies, 'sacrifice to Beelzebub' stands that you pass on your way to 7-11.

Unless, of course, we're talking about in your little fantasy world, where everyone celebrating Halloween is a Satanist.

[LibertarianInExile]

"I'm sure you don't think that's possible, but trust me, you know nothing - *nothing* - and be thankful for that, and hope for your own sakes that you stay ignorant."

BOOGA BOOGA! A Christian woman accidentally killed your lover with witchcraft! OOOOOoh, scary! Is this where the Crypt Keeper starts cackling in that fiendish laugh?

After reading your post, I can't help but feel relatively LESS ignorant.

[sfRummygirl]

I actually get mad at the Catholic bashing, too. I could listen to a debate on reformation stuff, that's great. But I don't like people bashing the catlicks.
I also can't stand born agains that bash any other denominations, and the ones who aren't trinitarian really confuse the heck out of me.
No, I hear ya, blaming Satan at everything is a cop out. leave it for the truly evil things...(Michael Schiavo)....
That's why I want people to just really think about halloween. Because it's not quite as black and white as folks would like. But I really want to defend the Christians who are concerned, because there are some things that should be forwarned.

[Mo1]

Long ago, when this baby boomer was a child, Halloween was for everyone. Planning your costume took weeks: collecting wigs and makeup; making blood from ketchup. Costumes came from the five-and-dime or were assembled from old clothes. We cherished the magic of transformation ... becoming Annie Oakley or Superman; a soldier or cheerleader; Cinderella or an astronaut.

I miss the old days ..

BTW .. we didn't have many trick or treaters either ..

[Mo1]

We prefer "harvest celebrations". Outside of school she goest to a party, dressed up and they then celebrate Reformation Day in honor of Luther.

Reformation Day ???

Gee .. sounds like a lot fun ..