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The question of whether unions are good or bad really hinges on whether you believe labor economics theories work, work effectively, and produce desirable results.

If Steinbeck's "Grapes of Wrath" is to be believed, the formation of unions began during the great dust bowl days when the supply of labor in California so greatly exceeded demand that the wage was driven to below what a person could live on. (And they were happy to get it). But in addition to a supply/demand inequality there was also employer collusion which agravated the situation.

The question is does labor economics always produce fair wages? And what are fair wages?

Unionized labor can indeed make an industry uncompetive relative to other markets (ex Foreign countries) that do not have unions. However our markets are uncompetitive to "slave labor" markets of China, despite the decline in unions. So I think we need to figure out some way of protecting our markets as opposed to always trying to compete in a world where "free trade" and technology and telecommunications can transport any advance world wide in a matter of minutes.

So I think we need to figure out some way of protecting our markets as opposed to always trying to compete in a world where "free trade" and technology and telecommunications can transport any advance world wide in a matter of minutes.

IMHO, the first step toward protecting our markets would be to eliminate the pitfalls inherent to union influence. What I am referring to are the costs of work stoppages and overhead absorption due to incompetent and/or unmotivated workers. These factors play a key role in the viability of a business, particularly manufacturing firms.

God gave man instinct. One facet of instinct is the will to survive and to better one's situation. I believe that organized labor suppresses this instinct by attempting to make everyone equal. As I said in an earlier post to this thread, attitude as well as aptitude should determine altitude. When you take away the need for these, the machine will most definitely break down.

And what are fair wages?

Any wages that the employer and the employee agree upon are fair wages. Could be $0.25 per hour or could be $25,000 per hour. If they both agree then it is fair