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To: John O
The concept of a union goes against the biblical precepts displayed in this parable.

You'll find the following encyclicals more thoroughly documented than the few verses that you've chose to interpret out of context.

Pope Leo XIII: Rerum Novarum (On the Condition of Workers)
Pope Pius XI: Quadragesimo Anno (On Reconstruction of the Social Order)
Pope John Paul II: Laborem Exercens:(On Human Work)

47 posted on 10/30/2003 2:00:10 PM PST by Willie Green (Go Pat Go!!!)
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To: Willie Green
BWA HA HA! Well said, AGAIN!
61 posted on 10/30/2003 6:53:55 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (The scariest nine words in the English Language: We're from the government. We're here to help you.)
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To: Willie Green
Pope Leo XIII: Rerum Novarum (On the Condition of Workers)
Pope Pius XI: Quadragesimo Anno (On Reconstruction of the Social Order)
Pope John Paul II: Laborem Exercens:(On Human Work)

I've looked and looked and looked and just can't seem to find these books in the bible.

Where exactly are they between Genesis and Revelation?

75 posted on 11/03/2003 4:01:36 AM PST by John O (God Save America (Please))
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To: Willie Green
Comments on Leo.

First this was written in 1891 and a lot of it has been overcome by events. Conditions for workers in the civilized world have changed immensely.

From my brief study Leo seems to be saying that associations of workers for mutual aid is a good thing. This is true.

No where in the encyclical does he mention collective bargaining.

Brief summary:

Paragraphs 1-29 are mostly a debunking of socialism, a defense of private property and a declaration that man is to work.

Paragraph 30 lays out the rights and duties of workers. Paragraph 31-32 lay out the rights and duties of employers. I agree with these two paragraphs.

Paragraphs 36-43 are mostly on Christian charity (which as we all know is voluntary)

Paragraph 53 discusses the exercise of law against criminal activity such as strikes and work stoppages (among others)

paragraph 55. "But it will be well to touch here expressly on certain matters of special importance. The capital point is this, that private property ought to be safeguarded by the sovereign power of the State and through the bulwark of its laws. And especially, in view of such a great flaming up of passion at the present time, the masses ought to be kept within the bounds of their moral obligations. For while justice does not oppose our striving for better things, on the other hand, it does forbid anyone to take from another what is his and, in the name of a certain absurd equality, to seize forcibly the property of others; nor does the interest of the common good itself permit this. Certainly, the great majority of working people prefer to secure better conditions by honest toil, without doing wrong to anyone. Nevertheless, not a few individuals are found who, imbued with evil ideas and eager for revolution, use every means to stir up disorder and incite to violence. The authority of the State, therefore, should intervene and, by putting restraint upon such disturbers, protect the morals of workers from their corrupting arts and lawful owners from the danger of spoliation.

Paragraphs 62-66 discuss fair wages.

Paragraph 67 speaks against cruching taxes

Paragraph 68 starts the discussion on mutual aid societys and associations of workers.

Paragraph 74 "Certainly, the number of associations of almost every possible kind, especially of associations of workers, is now far greater than ever before. This is not the place to inquire whence many of them originate, what object they have, or how they proceed. But the opinion is, and it is one confirmed by a good deal of evidence, that they are largely under the control of secret leaders and that these leaders apply principles which are in harmony neither with Christianity nor with the welfare of States, and that, after having possession of all available work, they contrive that those who refuse to join with them will be forced by want to pay the penalty. Under these circumstances, workers who are Christians must choose one of two things; either to join associations in which it is greatly to be feared that there is danger to religion, or to form their own associations and unite their forces in such a way that they may be able manfully to free themselves from such unjust and intolerable opposition. Can they who refuse to place man's highest good in imminent jeopardy hesitate to affirm that the second course is by all means to be followed?

(in other words, these associations were corrupt even then and for much the same reasons)

The rest of the encyclical discussions why Catholic associations would work far better.

At no point does the encyclical discuss collective bargaining, strikes against the owners or other typical union practices. None of the biblical references given support the concept of a labor union. (They do however support the concept of a mutual aid society)

So this encyclical does not support a biblical authorization for labor unions.

87 posted on 11/04/2003 6:06:17 AM PST by John O (God Save America (Please))
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To: Willie Green
comments on Pius: This was written in 1931 and like Leo in some instances is OBE.

Para 1-15. Praise for Leo's work

Para 16 intro

17-24 Priase for church for following Leo

25-28 Crediting Leo for all progress labor has made in the 40 years since

29-30 Crediting Leo for all progress uninons have made since 1891 (whether Catholic or not)

35 Permission for Catholics to join non-Catholic unions if those unions safeguard morality

38 Lament that there are no employer unions

40 End of intro.

Up to this point most of it was "That Leo was a great guy and his encyclical was great too"

41-43 right of the church to rule on economics

44-52 defense of private property

53-58 balance of capital and labor

59-62 current state of the worker

63-73 on wages
71 wages must be sufficient
72 Wages must not be excessive

74-76 availability of work

77 The reform of society

78-86 call to form guilds and to take back from the state the mutual support duties that the older guilds used to do

87 But these guilds must be freely associated with and one must not be forced to join

88-90 interdependence of economic and social/moral order

91-95 on syndicates (labor unions and corporations)
94 strikes and lockouts forbidden
This section is more of a definition of them as civilly recognized organizations than a endorsement of them.

96-98 working to a better social order and call to reform morals

99-104 on capitalism and state of the world

105-108 against concentration of money and power

109 the results of rampant capitalism/economic imperialism unrestrained by Christian values

110 review

111-124 socialism and communism
(discussion that socialism is incompatible with Christianity)

125-126 call for Catholics that fell into socialism to return to the church

127-131 call for social restoration

132-134 against speculative buyers and sellers

135 Lament on men falling into immorality due to their greed

(the feel I get from a lot of this is that it was addressing stock market crash type things, especially 105-108 and 132-135. people got greedy and speculated instead of worked)

136-137 cure for greed/law of charity

138-149 summary and call for revival of Catholic morals

Again, no biblical support for labor unions. The bible references given in the encyclical don't provide biblical authority for the existence of unions

89 posted on 11/04/2003 7:50:02 AM PST by John O (God Save America (Please))
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To: Willie Green
Comments on JPII:

I included only section 20 as no other section touched on unions.

20. Importance of Unions

All these rights, together with the need for the workers themselves to secure them, give rise to yet another right: the right of association, that is to form associations for the purpose of defending the vital interests of those employed in the various professions. These associations are called labour or trade unions. The vital interests of the workers are to a certain extent common for all of them; at the same time however each type of work, each profession, has its own specific character which should find a particular reflection in these organizations.

So far he is ok. Mutual aid societies are biblical, however defending the vital interests is far too open a phrase. Does defending the vital interests include killing the owner and taking his property? Or even just taking his property? The bible says thou shalt not steal.

In a sense, unions go back to the mediaeval guilds of artisans, insofar as those organizations brought together people belonging to the same craft and thus on the basis of their work. However, unions differ from the guilds on this essential point: the modern unions grew up from the struggle of the workers-workers in general but especially the industrial workers-to protect their just rights vis-a-vis the entrepreneurs and the owners of the means of production. Their task is to defend the existential interests of workers in all sectors in which their rights are concerned. The experience of history teaches that organizations of this type are an indispensable element of social life, especially in modern industrialized societies. Obviously, this does not mean that only industrial workers can set up associations of this type. Representatives of every profession can use them to ensure their own rights. Thus there are unions of agricultural workers and of white-collar workers; there are also employers' associations. All, as has been said above, are further divided into groups or subgroups according to particular professional specializations.

So far no biblical defense of unions

Catholic social teaching does not hold that unions are no more than a reflection of the "class" structure of society and that they are a mouthpiece for a class struggle which inevitably governs social life. They are indeed a mouthpiece for the struggle for social justice, for the just rights of working people in accordance with their individual professions. However, this struggle should be seen as a normal endeavour "for" the just good: in the present case, for the good which corresponds to the needs and merits of working people associated by profession; but it is not a struggle "against" others. Even if in controversial questions the struggle takes on a character of opposition towards others, this is because it aims at the good of social justice, not for the sake of "struggle" or in order to eliminate the opponent. It is characteristic of work that it first and foremost unites people. In this consists its social power: the power to build a community. In the final analysis, both those who work and those who manage the means of production or who own them must in some way be united in this community. In the light of this fundamental structure of all work-in the light of the fact that, in the final analysis, labour and capital are indispensable components of the process of production in any social system-it is clear that, even if it is because of their work needs that people unite to secure their rights, their union remains a constructive factor of social order and solidarity, and it is impossible to ignore it.

He seems to be living in a dream world here. Unions. at least since the fifties have always been against the owners. They have always sought to deprive the owner of his property through strikes

Just efforts to secure the rights of workers who are united by the same profession should always take into account the limitations imposed by the general economic situation of the country. Union demands cannot be turned into a kind of group or class "egoism", although they can and should also aim at correcting-with a view to the common good of the whole of society- everything defective in the system of ownership of the means of production or in the way these are managed. Social and socioeconomic life is certainly like a system of "connected vessels", and every social activity directed towards safeguarding the rights of particular groups should adapt itself to this system.

Still no biblical defense of unions

In this sense, union activity undoubtedly enters the field of politics, understood as prudent concern for the common good. However, the role of unions is not to "play politics" in the sense that the expression is commonly understood today. Unions do not have the character of political parties struggling for power; they should not be subjected to the decision of political parties or have too close links with them. In fact, in such a situation they easily lose contact with their specific role, which is to secure the just rights of workers within the £ramework of the common good of the whole of society; instead they become an instrument used for other purposes.

And obviously unions in this country have become no more and no less than a tool of the democrat party. (still no biblical defense of unions)

Speaking of the protection of the just rights of workers according to their individual professions, we must of course always keep in mind that which determines the subjective character of work in each profession, but at the same time, indeed before all else, we must keep in mind that which conditions the specific dignity of the subject of the work. The activity of union organizations opens up many possibilities in this respect, including their efforts to instruct and educate the workers and to foster their selfeducation. Praise is due to the work of the schools, what are known as workers' or people's universities and the training programmes and courses which have developed and are still developing this field of activity. It is always to be hoped that, thanks to the work of their unions, workers will not only have more, but above all be more: in other words, that they will realize their humanity more fully in every respect.

Here he discusses more mutual aid type activities, not core union activities. I'll give him part credit for a glancing biblical defense of mutual aid societies only because the point is made in Leo's and Pius' work

One method used by unions in pursuing the just rights of their members is the strike or work stoppage, as a kind of ultimatum to the competent bodies, especially the employers. This method is recognized by Catholic social teaching as legitimate in the proper conditions and within just limits. In this connection workers should be assured the right to strike, without being subjected to personal penal sanctions for taking part in a strike. While admitting that it is a legitimate means, we must at the same time emphasize that a strike remains, in a sense, an extreme means. It must not be abused; it must not be abused especially for "political" purposes. Furthermore it must never be forgotten that, when essential community services are in question, they must in every case be ensured, if necessary by means of appropriate legislation. Abuse of the strike weapon can lead to the paralysis of the whole of socioeconomic life, and this is contrary to the requirements of the common good of society, which also corresponds to the properly understood nature of work itself.

Here we have the head of the largest Christian denomination telling people it is OK to sin by stealing. I couldn't believe he wrote this. He recognizes the biblical fact of private ownership of property and yet tells his followers to ignore what the bible says about stealing someone else's property. I've lost a lot of respect for him

Notice however that he STILL hasn't provided a biblical defense of the existence of unions

Willie, I've read all three encyclicals (my eyes hurt, these guys might have been (are) good popes but they are lousy writers, never using three words where thirty will do.) and I have yet to find the biblical authority for labor unions. I guess it's not in these three.

I suppose though that you have several more 2,000-20,000 word encyclicals for me to read that don't provide biblical authority either.

I've read the whole bible and the authority for unions is not there. Unions are anti-biblical

92 posted on 11/04/2003 8:34:18 AM PST by John O (God Save America (Please))
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