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I Wonder...
Viewpoint Journal ^ | October 26, 2003 | David Flanagan

Posted on 10/26/2003 3:16:21 PM PST by dpflanagan

I think every so-called "Islamic Scholar" and fundamentalist opposed to the overthrow of Saddam and the establishment of Democratic government in Iraq should be asked this one question:

Which version of Iraq do you fear more; one which, under Saddam Hussein, Islam, as well as every other religion, was actively oppressed OR one in which there is free Democratic government and freedom of religion, including Christianity?

My guess is that most of these folks would decline to answer the question, but the answer would be obvious I think to anyone who heard the question... Islamic fundamentalists are deathly afraid of the concept of freedom of religion. To them, the very idea is anathema; that someone would be allowed to worship as they see fit, whenever they saw fit, or not at all!

To a fundamentalist of the Islamic faith, worship of Allah is mandatory, and the goal of their faith is to establish the "proper" worship of Allah in every nation on Earth, even if it must be done at rifle-point. Ironically, in some Middle East nations today, worship does take place under the careful watch of armed soldiers. Failure to worship Allah will earn you a nice long visit to your local prison, and a confession of faith to a religion other than Islam, especially the Christianity, will earn you a bullet to the head.

The fact is, radical muslims prefer to treat christians as a doctor might cancer; cut it out, poison it out, or burn it out, but never, ever tolerate it or allow it to spread. Christianity tends to be a dangerously prolfic religion and has served as a persistant roadblock to the spread of more radical forms of Islam for about a thousand years now. Not that people of the Islamic faith have been prevented from moving out into the western world, its just that, when those members of the faith do go and live amongst free peoples, they or their children tend to take on one very bad habit... tolerance!

Once muslims move into the larger world and become more socialized to western culture, they learn that freedom of worship is not such a bad thing as they first thought. First of all, there are no soldiers with guns to enforce worship, which is kind of nice. Secondly, members of their faith are free to participate in government, or not, and to express their opinion, even if it does differ from what anyone else thinks.

Thus, Islamic scholars may come to the US and denounce government intervention in Iraq or Afghanistan as "colonialism," or "imperialism," and nothing happens; except that some will listen and even perhaps agree. However, if a Christian scholar were to travel to, say, Syria, to speak to members of a university about the wonders of Democracy and religious freedom, well, its probably accurate to say that they would likely spend some time in prison, at the very least.

So, here is my suggestion; if you have the chance to attend a talk or debate regarding US actions in Afhganistan or Iraq with Islamic scholars insisting that the US is an imperialist nation that is intent on "recolonizing" the Middle East, please go. When you get the chance, get up and ask the question posed above and see what answer you get.

No matter what the answer is, please forward it to me at my email address, david@viewpointjournal.com, and let me know what they said. Inquiring minds want to know!

David Flanagan
Viewpointjournal.com


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; Philosophy; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: christianity; civilization; faith; islam; prison; religion; scholar; tolerance; western
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1 posted on 10/26/2003 3:16:23 PM PST by dpflanagan
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To: dpflanagan
Even Osama bin Laden called Hussein an infidel. Clerics despised him for repressing worship throughout Iraq. So far it looks like the clerics are enjoying their newfound freedom.

BTW, "bullet to the head"? Where have you been doing your research?

2 posted on 10/26/2003 4:31:14 PM PST by antiRepublicrat
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To: antiRepublicrat
"BTW, 'bullet to the head'? Where have you been doing your research?"

I think the real question is, how long have you been hiding your head in the sand? Remember the aid workers who were rescued from the Taliban shortly after the war in Afghanistan started? The reason for their arrest? They were accused of "promoting Christianity." Here is an excerpt from Reuters shortly after their rescue:

-----------------------
FREED AID WORKERS RECALL ORDEAL

HARROWING ESCAPE: The eight international aid workers arrested by the Taliban three months ago were plucked from a field in the dead of night by US helicopters and spirited away to Pakistan

REUTERS , ISLAMABAD
Friday, Nov 16, 2001,Page 4

Rescued German aid workers left to right, Katrin Jelinek, Silke Durrkopf and Margrit Stebner, arrive at the German Embassy in Islamabad yesterday after they were rescued from Afghanistan by US special forces. Eight foreign aid workers, including four Germans, two Australians and two Americans were rescued from the Taliban.
PHOTO: REUTERS

They endured three months in captivity, a hasty evacuation from Kabul with fleeing Taliban forces, a freezing night locked in a metal container and a harrowing morning in jail under deafening artillery bombardment.

But the eight aid workers detained by the fundamentalist Taliban on charges of promoting Christianity finally reached safety yesterday, plucked from a field in Afghanistan in the dead of night by US helicopters and spirited out to Pakistan.

"It was like a miracle," German detainee Georg Taubmann told reporters on arrival at his country's embassy in Islamabad.

Taubmann was detained by the Taliban in early August along with seven fellow workers from Shelter Now International -- Australians Peter Bunch and Diana Thomas, Americans Dayna Curry and Heather Mercer, and Germans Katrin Jelinek, Margrit Stebner and Silke Durrkopf. The charges carried the death penalty. [emphasis mine]

http://taipeitimes.com/News/against/archives/2001/11/16/111771 ----------------------

Check the laws on the books in several of the nations which are Islamic states and you will find the same laws. Generally, US and other foreign workers are thrown in jail for a while then deported, but the families that live in those nations are dealt with in much more of a permanent fashion, if you know what I mean.

Thanks.

David Flanagan Viewpointjournal.com

3 posted on 10/26/2003 5:29:18 PM PST by dpflanagan (http://www.viewpointjournal.com)
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To: dpflanagan
I know that case. These people went into a country where they knew proselytizing was illegal and then complained when they were arrested. So much for personal responsibility. If you can't do the time, then don't do the crime.

But about my comment, IIRC, beheading is the more popular form of execution.

4 posted on 10/26/2003 7:08:52 PM PST by antiRepublicrat
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To: antiRepublicrat
pros·e·ly·tize ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prs-l-tz)
v. pros·e·ly·tized, pros·e·ly·tiz·ing, pros·e·ly·tiz·es
v. intr.
To induce someone to convert to one's own religious faith.

In point of fact, as the definition above indicates, the aid workers did not proselytize. They did what most people who live in free countries do, when asked about their faith, they were happy to answer questions. For that, of course, they were thrown into jail with no due process, no food, and no idea if and when they would be released.

A quick question for you. It sounds by your statement that you actually RESPECT their system of government. Would I be right or wrong on that?

Thanks.

David Flanagan
Viewpointjournal.com

5 posted on 10/27/2003 3:01:27 AM PST by dpflanagan (http://www.viewpointjournal.com)
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To: dpflanagan
I remember the story from the time it happened. One woman in particular said she wasn't proselytizing, but on further interviewing she was doing everything that proselytizers do here.

No, I didn't like their type of government. However, the "oh poor me" whining is annoying when they knew what they were getting into, new they were breaking the local laws. Let's say they'd been executed for their crimes. Does the image of a martyr of old usually include in your eyes whining that they didn't do anything wrong?

6 posted on 10/27/2003 4:37:49 AM PST by antiRepublicrat
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To: antiRepublicrat
Are you at all familiar with the concepts of self-evident, God-given, unalienable rights?
7 posted on 10/27/2003 4:40:52 AM PST by EternalVigilance
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To: dpflanagan
Great article, David.

Kudoes.
8 posted on 10/27/2003 4:49:55 AM PST by EternalVigilance
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To: dpflanagan
Each of these countries that we have expended blood and treasure to liberate should be required to include in their new constitutions the same guarantees of liberty that we have in ours. Anything else should be a nonstarter.
9 posted on 10/27/2003 4:52:07 AM PST by EternalVigilance
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To: EternalVigilance
My thinking is, why not just Xerox our Constitution and hand it to all concerned for signatures? We can place some people there to explain it to them, if necessary.

It's worked for us, and the principles have worked wherever they've been tried.

In fact, If I recall correctly, that's pretty much what McCarthur did with Japan after WWII, with some small mods to keep them from developing a military, and preserving the Emperor as a figurehead.

10 posted on 10/27/2003 5:01:59 AM PST by Long Cut (Whiskey...oil for life's frictions)
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To: EternalVigilance
Are you at all familiar with the concepts of self-evident, God-given, unalienable rights?

Yes. Are you familiar with the concept of personal responsibility? There are some laws in my own country that I find flat-out wrong, but I'm not about to violate those laws since I do not want to face the consequences. Should I decide to violate those laws and get caught, I won't be whining.

11 posted on 10/27/2003 5:12:12 AM PST by antiRepublicrat
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To: antiRepublicrat
Exercising free speech and religious liberty is 'whining' to you. Amazing.

I guess if they passed a law limiting your breathing, you'd gladly play along. After all, it's the law...
12 posted on 10/27/2003 5:34:41 AM PST by EternalVigilance
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To: Long Cut
Absolutely.
13 posted on 10/27/2003 5:35:10 AM PST by EternalVigilance
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To: EternalVigilance; antiRepublicrat
Wait a minute, EV. I don't see the case of those people as a religious one or a rights one. Actually, it's more like a person who goes swimming in Northern Australia and then can't believe they got attacked by a croc.

We all know that, as AMERICANS, are rights are protected by our Constitution. However, in some nations, those rights are not even acknowledged, even punished in their excercise. Ultimately, if an American visits those countries, he does so at that risk, especially in a place as barbaric as Afghanistan.

Sad to say, things like this happen all over the world, and many don't have a religious component.

A Christian (or ANY) missionary entering a Muslim nation should be well aware of what they are saying or doing at all times. The reality is, even though their rights are unalienable, they are most certainly NOT protected there, and it is foolhardiness in the extreme to think otherwise.

14 posted on 10/27/2003 5:44:52 AM PST by Long Cut (Whiskey...oil for life's frictions)
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To: Long Cut
Come on. Those folks knew the risks.

But to criticize them, to suggest that they did anything wrong in breaking these laws of man which utterly contradict the God-given liberty every human being is endowed with, is ridiculous.

I smell a different sort of bias here.

The 'proselytizing' charge is the clue...
15 posted on 10/27/2003 5:55:30 AM PST by EternalVigilance
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To: Long Cut
You do of course realize that every Christian is charged by Jesus' Great Commission to 'preach the good news to every creature', correct?
16 posted on 10/27/2003 5:57:25 AM PST by EternalVigilance
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To: Long Cut
A little bit of a higher law, wouldn't you say?
17 posted on 10/27/2003 5:57:57 AM PST by EternalVigilance
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To: EternalVigilance
I didn't say they did WRONG, and as far as I can tell, neither did AR.

I DID say, in as nice as way as possible, that they were perhaps naieve in the extreme, and foolhardy. That's not the same thing.

I don't want to speak for AR, as he's capable of that himself, but what I got from his posts was that, if they WERE doing as you say, then they shouldn't have cried about it later.

Given that they DID, it seems to me that their simple goodheartedness overcame common sense. You have to admit, that's not uncommon with such people.

18 posted on 10/27/2003 6:02:04 AM PST by Long Cut (Whiskey...oil for life's frictions)
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To: Long Cut
You're sure reading it different than I am. He critized them for breaking the law.
19 posted on 10/27/2003 6:04:26 AM PST by EternalVigilance
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To: EternalVigilance
Exercising free speech and religious liberty is 'whining' to you.

Going from a country where those rights are somewhat protected into another country where you know they aren't, and then complaining when those rights are violated, is whining. It's the same thing as that human shield woman who is complaining about being prosecuted due to her violating the travel ban on Iraq, and I actually support her case on one point: restriction of free travel is not something that should happen in a free society.

I guess if they passed a law limiting your breathing, you'd gladly play along. After all, it's the law...

That's why I have chosen to live in societies where most rights are protected. And having a family to take care of, I am not going to put myself in jeopardy by violating those laws with which I disagree.

20 posted on 10/27/2003 6:06:04 AM PST by antiRepublicrat
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