Reasons for the fall of the Roman Empire (Does history repeat itself?)

killeenroos.com ^ | Unknown | Unknown

[SpaceBar]

The above history class notes were found while perusing the internet for information regarding the Roman Empire and its' demise. Readers will note the striking similarity to the situation of the present day United States. In fact, the very last part of the article (not shown) urges readers to think of modern day examples for each point. I post this as intellectual fodder for freepers who like this sort of stuff. Enjoy.

[HuntsvilleTxVeteran]

No state has the inherent right to survive through conscript troops and in the long run, no state ever has. Roman matrons used to say to their sons: "Come back with your shield, or on it." Later on, this custom declined. So did Rome.

THE NOTEBOOKS OF LAZARUS LONG

by Robert Anson Heinlein

[LiteKeeper]

When Nations Die deals with this subject in depth, compares several different ancient cultures, and draws parallels with the United States today. Excellent read if you can find a copy!

[Cicero]

Rome lasted for a very long time, but regretably, no ordinary institution lasts forever.

The United States has the longest-lasting continuous, legitimate government in the world today. It will last as long as her citizens continue to give more to their country than they take. But nothing lasts forever in this world.

[Prime Choice]

Don't forget long-term lead poisoning. Many a Roman suffered malaise as a consequence of the use of lead in food and beverage containers.

[donmeaker]

I would point out that the Roman Empire fell twice, once to the Latin 4th Crusade, Led in part by the Doge of Venice~ So much for the western Romans being overrun by Barbarians~ in the 12th century or so, and once to the Ottomans in 1453 when Turkish cannon knocked a hole in the walls and the Jannisaries (decendents of crusader captives, in an early attempt at eugenics.

Odoacer was a barbarian, but he was also an officer of the Roman Government. The Dioclitain semi-constitution, And "Augustus" in the East and West, and a "Caesar" in both east and west, is what changed. Odoacer quite politely sent the western imperial regalia back to Constantinopolos.

It should be noted that whereas Constantine flipflopped on One God and One Church, he was pretty hard over on One Empire.

The Western Roman empire was not centered on Rome, but rather on Ravenna, rather high up on the eastern side of the boot.

If you watch Tolkien's Lord of the Rings, his history gets its inspiration from the fall of constantinopolos, and the Uruk hai, who are half man, half orc, refers to the janissaries who were of european fathers and Arab mothers, who were raised as muslim fanatics.

In reality, the sea borne relief did not arrive, and the Rohirrim (aka the Bulgars) cut a deal with the Ottomans.

[Intolerant in NJ]

From what I recall in reading The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire years and years ago, the essential problem was that the society became too fractured, with special interest groups all working against each other to gain their own special advantage - like unions against corporations, academics against the military, leftwing churches against fundamentalists, gays against the boy scouts, etc etc etc.......

[AlbionGirl]

And another point from that series of books, is that the truly best and brightest of the Empire retired to their quarters and their books, and looked only inward.

As a consequence those with the wherewithall (sp?;word?) to pull the Empire from the abyss were AWOL.

[donmeaker]

With your shield or on it was a greek saying, I think more spartan than otherwise. That was because the close order greek phalanx was very vulnerable to flank attaks, and the only recourse was to run (and you cant run well with the shield knocking against your knees.

That was ancient history during the Roman period. The Alexanderian phalanx used longer pikes and smaller shields.

The Romans evolved, from Camillius and his three lines of skirmisher, main body, and heavily armored "triari" third line, to the Marian legion with chain mail, to the empire with lorica segementata, that you see in the cartoons (asterix and Obelix! ) Later they adopted heavy cavalry which was a weakness in the republican and principate, a major strength in the Eastern Empire.



The roman shield was hand held, not strapped and hanging from the shoulders, and the romans fought in open order during the time of the Western Empire.
.

[TheCrusader]

The book "Barbarians At The Gates" tells the story very well. Rome eventually allowed many of the babarians to become citizens, and even to become members of their military. This was the real reason for the decline and fall of Rome. Sound familiar with our own nation? Open borders, lax immigration laws, rewarding illegal aliens with licenses. The barbarians are at our own gates now.

[Restorer]

Roman matrons used to say to their sons: "Come back with your shield, or on it."

I'm quite surprised by RAH. This was a Spartan saying, although it is possible the Romans adopted it.

The shape of the Spartan shield gave it real meaning, while the difference in Roman armaments would have made it purely a metaphor for them.

[LenS]

Ah, but the Empire's successful days were built on the conversion of the Gauls, the Britons, the Spaniards and many other peoples (including the Balkans, North Africans, and the peoples of Asia Minor) into Roman citizens who vigorously defended the Empire for centuries. In fact, that assimilation process began during the Republic as the city-state began to turn their neighbors into Roman citizens. It was often a bloody process (see Social Wars).

And Rome always had open borders -- it was only large armies that were stopped. The borders were too vast for the Legions to patrol as if it was the Korean DMZ.

[Held_to_Ransom]

No state has the inherent right to survive through conscript troops and in the long run, no state ever has. Roman matrons used to say to their sons: "Come back with your shield, or on it." Later on, this custom declined. So did Rome

Nonsense. Rome did just fine with it's army until it tried undercutting their pay too much. That's when they went into the skid. It's true the the Roman Army of Caeser's age was better in many ways, but the hired Germans were fully capable of the work. Above all it was the devastating demise of the gold supply that did it; too much shipped to India for gems for the wealthy to wear.

Hopefully, Congress will pay attention to the lesson and remember to always adequately compensate those who defend the state from her enemies.

[HuntsvilleTxVeteran]

The largest underPAID minority in the USA is the Armed
Forces.

[Intolerant in NJ]

...the truly best and brightest of the Empire retired to their quarters and their books, and looked only inward...this would be perfectly understandable in today's world...when many of the best positions go not to the truly best and brightest, but to those of the correct race and sex...when the power hungry, especially in government, do all they can to sidetrack the best and the brightest who threaten to thwart their relentless quest for control and authority...when taking a public stand determined through one's experience and knowledge but contrary to the prevailing politically correct, leftwing ideologies inevitably leads to ridicule and character assassination...after awhile it may come to seem that what's left of society really isn't worth the trouble to try to turn it around, and a cozy chair and intriguing book my look like the best of all possible worlds.......

[Williams]

Just a general comment on the article and posts. There is too much misinformation here to respond to it all. But mistaking the 4th crusade's attack on Constantinople in the 1200's, for the fall of Rome itself in the 5th century, probably takes the cake. One of my pet peeves is folks who try to tell you "why" Rome fell. The Decline and Fall Of The Roman Empire tells a 1500 year history of the Western and Eastern Roman Empire. Because it is a great work about mankind in general, there are lessons galore for all of us. But like any 1500 year slice of any part of the earth's history, you cannot come up with a snap reason why it all happened.

[AlbionGirl]

after awhile it may come to seem that what's left of society really isn't worth the trouble to try to turn it around, and a cozy chair and intriguing book my look like the best of all possible worlds.......

Not that I'm one of the best and brightest, but I find myself retreating and wanting a hermetic existence. Imagine those who are truly talented and love their Country...imagine how they feel when they compare their credentials against many of our Senators; who after all are supposed to be our conscience and deliberators.

It really is frightening, because the caliber of elected official is continuing on a downward spiral, IMO.

[FreedomCalls]

Don't forget the illegal immigration. From the Vandals, the Visigoths, the Ostagoths, the Alans, and so forth. The Visigoths in particular asked permission to cross over into Roman territory to escape other tribes pressing them from the east. Romans were OK with it because they only wanted jobs and land that Romans did not want. They ended up deposing the Roman Emperor and ending Roman rule a few decades later.

[Consort]

The Latin alphabet had only 23 letters; no "J" no "U" and no "W". They couldn't figure out how to spell Joint, or Underware or Wow.

[haroldeveryman]

As the empire’s ability to defend its borders declined the Romans allowed barbarian tribes to settle border areas. This gave them a vested interest in defending the borders against raids by other barbarians. These Germans increasingly manned the regular western Roman armies, initially as grunts, and in time as generals. The western part of the empire broke up when one of these German generals (Odacer) informed the emperor that his services were no longer required and declared himself King of Italy. Thus, the Western empire went out with a wimper. Shortly thereafter the Eastern emperor Justinian reconquered Italy, Spain, and North Africa, but the western provinces were in such a sorry state economically that they was nothing but a financial drain on Constantinople and were gradually abandoned.