Posted on 10/19/2003 10:07:46 AM PDT by rightcoast
Was the United States founded on Judeo-Christian principles?
Is the issue really about what religion our founding fathers practiced? With laws prohibiting many, if not all of the Ten Commandments, I wonder how there can be much doubt where these laws originated. However, I understand that many people believe that these are "universal" ideals, somehow ingrained in man from his conception.
In response to the belief that we are somehow born knowing right from wrong, I ask a simple question. Do you have to teach children to fight over toys, or to share them? I have two children of my own, and I assure you...sharing does not come naturally.
Regardless of whether you subscribe to the Judeo-Christian belief that man was created in the image of God, then man sinned, so now man has fallen and is inherently bent on evil until the return of the Messiah, it is inarguable that we are born with natural tendencies toward conflict and selfishness. These are the exact tendencies our laws were put in place to protect others from.
Michael Savage, in his book The Savage Nation: Saving America from the Liberal Assault on Our Borders, Language and Culture poses an interesting question. Many people, usually those on the side of this argument believing that this country was NOT founded on Christian principles, would take religion completely out of society. They see religion as a destructive force, a source of great conflict, and something to be avoided in any enlightened society at all costs.
In many ways, their beliefs are justified, if even accurate. Many wars are fought over religious beliefs. Many conflicts begin over religion. So in that respect, I tend to agree. Religion does breed conflict. However, what would you replace it with?
The natural response is science. I actually subscribed to this belief at one point in my life...prior to becoming a Christian. It seems that the more and more society and science progress, the more we can explain through science. Religion can appear as simply something that weak-minded people use to explain things for which there is currently no explanation. So, again, the natural tendency is to believe that science will eventually replace society's need for religion.
There is one huge problem with this, and this is the crux of my argument. Science does not, and can not, define a moral code for a society. The example that Michael Savage uses is Nazi Germany. Look at the experiments that the scientists performed once they were relieved of the "restraints" of morality. They conducted innumerable atrocities on human beings in the name of science. I assure that similar things will happen in any society that removes the morality that is the fiber of it's laws.
So back to the basic question posed: Is the United States founded on Christian principles? I believe that the morality that we all ascribe to, whether Christian or not, stems from the Bible. There is a great deal of evidence of this throughout history, regardless of the specific religious preferences of our forefathers.
The real question, though, is would we have morals without religion? I think that, given the above example, the answer is no. Look at the morality of the Native Americans compared to the morality of European Christians. Look at the morality of a buddhist compared to the Native American. They are vastly different, given different moral and religious influences. Left to our devices, we will seek out religion to bring some form of order to our societies. Native Americans practiced some pretty atrocious and heinous things, but they still had a religion that defined what is and what is not acceptable.
In the end, I think the question that Christianity has influenced many of our laws has to go unquestioned. It is evident by simply picking up a Bible, and then comparing it to our laws. They are (or were) identical in many places. Given all of the evidence presented above, do you really believe that we would have these morals were it not for the effect Christianity has had on society?
Madison says that it is best when religion and politics are separate. That is not a philosophy generally expressed in the Bible, except for Jesus's statement, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's. [Luke 20:25]"
If that is what you mean by the nation being founded on Judeo-Christian principles then I am in agreement with you.
Sure try these for starters:
"Thou shalt not kill." (The right to life)
"Thou shalt not steal."(The right to property)
How's that?
Actually, there is so much evidence that they were informed by the Bible and their Christianity I find it incredible that people still argue against those facts.
But why don't we cut to the chase and argue the Constitution and the bogus Wall of Separation.
Do you believe the first amendment built such a wall?
Setting up strawmen?
As quoted here and elsewhere, Madison expresses favor for a separation of church and politics.
You'll see that I have acknowledged that there have been laws in this country derived from Christian beliefs and customs. But those are not founding principles. The sabbath and Catholic missions are not in the Constitution and the country was not founded in order to provide them.
The nation wsa founded to free its citizens from political tyranny, a topic which does not come up in the Bible.
No "strawmen", I asked you a direct question.
By the way, you didn't answer it.
Since America was founded upon the Biblical Worldview, it would behoove you to find out what that is before you get in over your head in your attempt to discuss the founding of America. Don't jump to the conclusion that you already know. You quite obviously don't.
To ground yourself, do a google search and find the works of Alvin Plantinga, Ronald H. Nash, et.al.
Those are not written as rights, they are written as proscriptions. And where is the right to liberty or the pursuit of happiness?
Jefferson himself indicated in other writings that those rights are bestowed by nature, not God.
"A free people [claim] their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their chief magistrate." --Thomas Jefferson: Rights of British America, 1774. ME 1:209, Papers 1:134Furthermore, the Communist Chinese outlaw murder and theft. Would you argue that Red China is founded on Judeo-Christian principles?
My ancestors were among them. What does that have to do the with questions the article poses?
That question would be appropriate for a "Wall of Separation" thread. If you'd like to change the discussion then let's wait until we've finished with this topic.
Facts not in evidence.
To ground yourself, do a google search and find the works of Alvin Plantinga, Ronald H. Nash, et.al.
Are you saying that there is nowhere in the Bible that you know of that talks about the rights of man versus the state? And that you want me to read the entire works of an inderterminate list of philosophers to find the answer? No thanks. I tell you what - you read them and find the excerpts to this discussion.
Jefferson is the most oft quoted fellow by far from your side for obvious reasons. How about quoting George Mason, his fellow Virginian.
Get real, they are proscribed because they are rights granted by God.
And where is the right to liberty or the pursuit of happiness?
Seek and ye shall find.
You can choose not to answer simple questions but you're not the hall monitor or the FR traffic director.
Looking for Diogenes: "Facts not in evidence."
Well, DUH!! It isn't any wonder that it is a fact not in evidence to you since you have already said that you are a biblical illiterate and furthermore, have no intention of educating yourself on the matter.
I don't ride in boats very long with one-armed boat-rowers that can only go in circles. I hope you don't mind, but I'm hopping out of yours now. Bye!
"As I suggested earlier, I think you had better "carefully" read what I posted and don't attempt to divert attention off the subject of this thread. If you want to start another thread on that different subject, be my guest." - Matchett-PI
Gosh, some folks complain that I'm changing the subject and others complain that I'm not changing the subject. I'm trying to stick to the topic of "Was the United States founded on Judeo-Christian principles?"
Actually, there is so much evidence that they were informed by the Bible and their Christianity I find it incredible that people still argue against those facts. But why don't we cut to the chase and argue the Constitution and the bogus Wall of Separation. Do you believe the first amendment built such a wall?
The Founding Father were undoubtedly Christians in one form or another. But I still haven't seen any evidence that the Constituion includes principles which are tied more closely to the Bible then to contemporary political theory. The "Federalist Papers" don't reference the Bible, the debates at the Constitutional Convention don't reference the Bible, and the theories that tie the Bible and the Constitution together are very strained. If you can answer the question at hand then we can move on to the other issue you'd like to discuss.
In other words, you don't know.
No, I have admitted no such thing. I've read the Bible. It's not there. There is nowhere in the Bible that says citizens have the right to rise up and overthrow a tyrant. Since you feel that there is such a reference it is incumbent on you to show us all where that "biblical" principle can be found. Until then don't say that it's proven that the nation was founded on a Biblical worldview, whatever that is.
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