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To: ancient_geezer
Less than 10% of CO2 emmissions are due to mankind thus less than 10% of any residual effect of increasing CO2 is due to mankind:

Interesting way you put that. "Less than 10% of CO2 emissions are due to mankind." Perhaps that's true. However, why is atmospheric CO2 concentration increasing? You say (full exchange reproduced):

-----

cogitator: BECAUSE... you apparently alluded that the" increasing CO2 concentrations might be a climate effect, i.e., a response to a natural climate trend.

It, without a doubt, is. As a consequence of warming and release of watervapor with warming through variation of aldebo/reflection of solar flux, there is more biomass to produce CO2, greater release of CO2 from solution in oceans and glacial ices ....

cogitator: You can easily say that a) is correct, and we can move on from there.

a) is incorrect as well as irrelevant due to lack of capacity to effect substantive change in earth's global temperature in comparison to the substantive affects of water vapor, and we can continue from there.

-----

for review, "a)" states: "a) the majority of CO2 added to the atmosphere since 1850 is from human sources, primarily fossil fuels"

OK. Let me state this right up front. If you say that a) is incorrect, you're wrong. Totally and completely wrong. I had to figure out where your wrongness is rooted before I can address all the other areas you've brought up. However, I'm prepared to fight out this line if it takes all winter.

There are several different lines of evidence that indicate that the increase in atmospheric CO2 commencing about 1850 ("dawn of the Industrial Age") is almost entirely anthropogenic. They are discussed on this Web page:

Why does atmospheric CO2 rise?

I will provide summary statements of each separate line of evidence for the anthropogenic cause of increasing atmospheric CO2. You can read about them in the Web page for further elucidation. (I've edited a bit for brevity.)

1. Ice cores show that during the past 1000 years until about the year 1800, atmospheric CO2 was fairly stable at levels between 270 and 290 ppmv. The 1994 value of 358 ppmv is higher than any CO2 level observed over the past 220,000 years.

2. The rise of atmospheric CO2 closely parallels the emissions history from fossil fuels and land use changes [Schimel 94, p 46-47].

3. The rise of airborne CO2 falls short of the human-made CO2 emissions. Taken together, the ocean and the terrestrial vegetation and soils must currently be a net sink of CO2 rather than a source [Melillo, p 454] [Schimel 94, p 47, 55] [Schimel 95, p 79] [Siegenthaler].

4. Most "new" CO2 comes from the Northern Hemisphere. Measurements in Antarctica show that Southern Hemisphere CO2 level lags behind by 1 to 2 years, which reflects the interhemispheric mixing time.

5. ** Important point provided in entirety.* Fossil fuels contain practically no carbon 14 (14C) and less carbon 13 (13C) than air. CO2 coming from fossil fuels should show up in the trends of 13C and 14C. Indeed, the observed isotopic trends fit CO2 emissions from fossil fuels. The trends are not compatible with a dominant CO2 source in the terrestrial biosphere or in the ocean. [On the Web page, details of this point are provided in the next two paragraphs.]

Reviewing, you said: "As a consequence of warming and release of watervapor with warming through variation of aldebo/reflection of solar flux, there is more biomass to produce CO2, greater release of CO2 from solution in oceans and glacial ices .... "

I have now shown that this statement is clearly wrong. The page demonstrates beyond scientific doubt that the cause of increasing atmospheric CO2 since about 1850 is predominantly anthropogenic, primarily from fossil fuel burning. Do you now concede that this point is correct?

34 posted on 10/20/2003 9:29:47 AM PDT by cogitator
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To: cogitator

I have now shown that this statement is clearly wrong.

You have shown nothing actually, as the same article makes it very clear that anthropogenic additions to the atmosphere are less than 5% of total additions to the atmosphere.

Emmissions cited in the article:

2.1  Natural carbon fluxes
                                                                     GtC / year
    Terrestrial vegetation  -->  atmosphere         60  Respiration
    Soils & detritus  -->  atmosphere                 60  Respiration
    Surface ocean  -->  atmosphere                   90
===================================================
Total natural carbon emmissions to atmosphere        210 GtC

2.2 Anthropogenic carbon
     Carbon dioxide sources                             GtC / year
      Fossil fuel burning, cement production               5.5 (5.0-6.0)
      Changes in tropical land use                              1.6 (0.6-2.6)
==================================================
Total anthropogenic emissions                            7.1 (6.0-8.2)

The page demonstrates beyond scientific doubt that the cause of increasing atmospheric CO2 since about 1850 is predominantly anthropogenic, primarily from fossil fuel burning.

Hardly:

Do you now concede that this point is correct?

No I do not, As I stated before, the earth cannot magically distinguish between Carbon from anthropogenic sources and Carbon from natural sources thus all carbon sinks must be taken in aggregate with respect to all sources of Atmospheric CO2 rather than attempting, as the article does, to separate "Anthropogenic" CO2 emmissions from "Natural" emmissions when evaluating Carbon sinks. You cannot take a "net" value of the Natural CO2, and then look at the whole value of Anthropogenic CO2 in evaluation of respective contributions.
Your point is based in a fallacy and without scientific foundation.

In fact, your point is indeed a mere strawman argument to boot to draw away from the essential factor,

Regardless of source of atmospheric CO2, the impact of changing CO2 concentration on the earth's Climate is nil:

As pointout in previous replies, and I will continue to point out:

CO2-Temperature Correlations

[ see also: Indermuhle et al. (2000), Monnin et al. (2001), Yokoyama et al. (2000), Clark and Mix (2000) ]

[see: Petit et al. (1999), Staufer et al. (1998), Cheddadi et al., (1998), Raymo et al., 1998, Pagani et al. (1999), Pearson and Palmer (1999), Pearson and Palmer, (2000) ]


 

Global warming and global dioxide emission and concentration:
a Granger causality analysis

http://isi-eh.usc.es/trabajos/122_41_fullpaper.pdf


Here Comes the Sun

"Carbon dioxide, the main culprit in the alleged greenhouse-gas warming, is not a "driver" of climate change at all. Indeed, in earlier research Jan Veizer, of the University of Ottawa and one of the co-authors of the GSA Today article, established that rather than forcing climate change, CO2 levels actually lag behind climatic temperatures, suggesting that global warming may cause carbon dioxide rather than the other way around."

***

"Veizer and Shaviv's greatest contribution is their time scale. They have examined the relationship of cosmic rays, solar activity and CO2, and climate change going back through thousands of major and minor coolings and warmings. They found a strong -- very strong -- correlation between cosmic rays, solar activity and climate change, but almost none between carbon dioxide and global temperature increases."

 


 

Again we revisit the Geophysical record of CO2 and it's correlation to global temperture, this time we remove the catastrophic initiations of ice ages due to factors clearly not associated with CO2 concentration.

From the geological record, we can see a remainder trendline of CO2 concentration with respect to temperature by running a trend through the peak global tempertures.

As you have acknowleged the initiation of the deep iceages are clearly due to other factors such as plate tectonics, Gamma Ray Bursts, Meteoric events, etc.which initiate atmospheric cooling incident to the creation of high altitude cloud cover & icefields altering the mean albedo of the earth. Such effects lower overall irradiation of the earths surface and hence cools the surface. Under such conditions the major multi-million year iceages are induced. Remove their effects on the overall record, and what is left behind is a residual that can be perceived, to the first order, as a correlation of CO2 and temperature if we assume an essentially constant Solar radiation flux, which the IPCC modellers insist as being true.

I bring your attention to the two redline additions to our favorite chart:

:

 

The upper horizontal red line represents a peak temperature of 22.8oC as represented at the chart Cambrian CO2 peak of 7000ppm. The second and descending redline is a rough approximation of the average peak temperatures which should be somewhat representative of any residual correlation between CO2 & temperature, we note that the downtrending redline terminates at approximately 21.6oC and today's 320ppm CO2 concentration.

It should also be noted here that the relationship between CO2 radiant absorption capacity varies logrithmically with concentration of the gas under consideration in the atmosphere. For any fixed multiplier of change in concentration there is a linear incremental change in absorbed energy of the gas. Thus doubling, or halving, the concentration of CO2 will result in a linear increment in the absorbed radiation at the wavelengths CO2 is responsive to where incident radiative flux is constant.

7000ppm/320ppm = 21.9 (~ 4.45 doublings) with 22.8-21.6 = 1.2oC change in temperature.

Overall atmospheric correlation between CO2 & increment of energy absorbed of necessity includes any temperature/concentration linkages that may actually occur in the atmosphere.

for 1.2oC & 4.45 doublings, CO2 doubles for ~ 0.27oC increase in global temperature

A value which is much less than the lowest 1.5to2.5oC/doubling estimate built into the UN/IPCC global climate models, which suggests the relationship between CO2 and temperature built into the IPCC models is substantially overstated and in error.

The geophysical coefficient of doubling of CO2 concentration for each 0.27oC increase in temperature, by the way, agrees well with many other means of computing the CO2 correlation.

A Lukewarm Greenhouse
"
The average warming predicted by the six methods for a doubling of CO2, is only +0.2 degC."


35 posted on 10/20/2003 2:28:37 PM PDT by ancient_geezer
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