Posted on 01/30/2016 5:34:51 PM PST by 2ndDivisionVet
Via the Free Beacon, we've reached the stage of Trumpmania where the same media that used to routinely predict that every new Trump "gaffe" would finish him off now heralds everything Trump does as carefully calculated Machiavellian genius. Trump has convinced them to their bones, not without reason, that everything they thought they knew about presidential politics is wrong and every move he makes is right. Case in point: Skipping the debate four days before Iowans caucus is genius. Why? Because Trump's a genius and he thinks it's a good idea, even though there are lots of really obvious perils in a move like that. Same goes for this attack on Cruz, I assume. Suggesting that Cruz isn't a U.S. citizen at all because he wasn't born here is genius. Why? Well, Trump thinks it's genius, and he has had success in driving Cruz's favorable numbers down in Iowa this month by questioning his eligibility. Case closed, right?
Let's think strategically. Assume you're Trump and you've just won Iowa. Who are you worried about now? Answer: Whoever looks to be the strongest center-right contender in New Hampshire. That's probably Marco Rubio, especially if he finishes strong in Iowa, which he may well do. The special danger that Rubio poses, not just to Trump but to everyone, is that he can pull from both sides of the field as others drop out. Some conservatives will never support him because of amnesty, but some will. And plenty of moderates will. If Trump is headed for a two-man race with Rubio then he should be thinking already about how to lure Cruz's voters, some of whom are open to Trump because he's a populist but some of whom are open to Rubio because he's more conservative than Trump is. Trump should want to do everything he can to tear down Cruz at this point by attacking his record without doing something that angers persuadable Cruz fans so much that they opt for Rubio over Trump out of spite if forced to choose. (Cruz doesn't have the same problem with Trump fans. None of them are going to Rubio if the race comes down to Rubio and Cruz, so even if Cruz alienates them, the worst thing they'll do to him is stay home.)
Accusing Cruz of being an "anchor baby" in Canada and of possibly not even being a U.S. citizen is, I think, the sort of attack that'll alienate Cruz voters more than garden-variety stuff like "Cruz doesn't play well with others." It's dirty pool in a way that attacks on his record in the Senate aren't. What Trump's doing here is suggesting that the "natural-born" clause in Article II isn't just a qualification for the presidency but a bright-line rule for citizenship generally. If you were born on U.S. soil, Trump's hinting, you're a citizen. If you weren't, and weren't later naturalized, you aren't. That's not true, though: Congress sets the rules for citizenship, and there's no question that Cruz qualified per the statute that was in effect when he was born in 1970. The only question is whether he can lawfully run for this office under the Constitution. By conflating those two ideas, citizenship and Article II eligibility, Trump's basically accusing Cruz of being -- ta da -- an illegal immigrant. And not just an illegal immigrant, but an illegal immigrant in two different countries. That's what the "anchor baby" business is all about: I've never read anything suggesting that Cruz's parents were in Canada illegally when he was born and used his birth as a way to establish legal residency, but that's what most people think of when they think of "anchor babies." (An "anchor baby" could also be used by legal residents to extend their legal residency in a country.) "Anchor baby" is doubly stupid as applied to Cruz since his parents didn't actually use him as a long-term anchor in Canada. They moved to the U.S., of which his mother is a citizen, when he was a toddler. Trump's essentially down to arguing that not only is Cruz weak on amnesty, he is amnesty. If he ends up losing the caucuses and fades from the race, I wonder how it'll sit with Cruz to think that Trump outmaneuvered him by questioning his loyalty to America and even his right to be here. Once upon a time, I thought he'd endorse Trump if he dropped out as part of a broad populist offensive against "the establishment." Now I wonder. Accusing Cruz of being an "anchor baby" in Canada and of possibly not even being a U.S. citizen is, I think, the sort of attack that'll alienate Cruz voters more than garden-variety stuff like "Cruz doesn't play well with others." It's dirty pool in a way that attacks on his record in the Senate aren't. What Trump's doing here is suggesting that the "natural-born" clause in Article II isn't just a qualification for the presidency but a bright-line rule for citizenship generally. If you were born on U.S. soil, Trump's hinting, you're a citizen. If you weren't, and weren't later naturalized, you aren't. That's not true, though: Congress sets the rules for citizenship, and there's no question that Cruz qualified per the statute that was in effect when he was born in 1970. The only question is whether he can lawfully run for this office under the Constitution. By conflating those two ideas, citizenship and Article II eligibility, Trump's basically accusing Cruz of being -- ta da -- an illegal immigrant. And not just an illegal immigrant, but an illegal immigrant in two different countries. That's what the "anchor baby" business is all about: I've never read anything suggesting that Cruz's parents were in Canada illegally when he was born and used his birth as a way to establish legal residency, but that's what most people think of when they think of "anchor babies." (An "anchor baby" could also be used by legal residents to extend their legal residency in a country.) "Anchor baby" is doubly stupid as applied to Cruz since his parents didn't actually use him as a long-term anchor in Canada. They moved to the U.S., of which his mother is a citizen, when he was a toddler. Trump's essentially down to arguing that not only is Cruz weak on amnesty, he is amnesty. If he ends up losing the caucuses and fades from the race, I wonder how it'll sit with Cruz to think that Trump outmaneuvered him by questioning his loyalty to America and even his right to be here. Once upon a time, I thought he'd endorse Trump if he dropped out as part of a broad populist offensive against "the establishment." Now I wonder.
Yes, my finger slipped, I guess.
Wrong, it’s called being a responsible citizen exercising due diligence.
“They would be US citizens but not natural born citizens unless their father was also a US citizen and the site in France was a United States terrority, like an embassy or a military base.”
A person born on a U.S. military base, in a U.S. embassy, in a U.S. consulate, or anywhere else abroad without personal diplomatic immunity is still born subject to the duty of allegiance and obedience to a foreign sovereign that creates the divided allegiance and divided loyalty resulting in an alien birth requiring the acquisition of U.S. citizenship by naturalization at birth or after birth under the authority of a naturalization law. Such persons are not and can never be natural born citizens of the United States.
“So he isn’t satisfied with winning. He wants to destroy Cruz.”
So you admit this can destroy Cruz? If so, Cruz brought this on himself, right?
Thank you for clarifying. So McCain was the exception due to the status of our terrority in Panama.
“Thank you for clarifying. So McCain was the exception due to the status of our terrority in Panama.”
That is incorrect. John McCain was born in a hospital in Colon, Panama just outside the boundary of the U.S. Panama Canal Zone and under the jurisdiction of the sovereign nation of Panama. Any person born abroad, meaning outside the jurisdiction of the United States, without two U.S. citizen parents and without diplomatic immunity to shield the child from the jurisdiction of the foreign sovereign is born with a divide allegiance, is born with the right to adopt U.S. citizenship by naturalization at birth or after birth. Such a person does not have an undivided allegiance to only the United States as the sole sovereign and is therefore cannot be a natural born citizen of the United States. It makes no difference whether the birthplace is in the U.S. Panama Canal Zone, Panama, or any other place outside the incorporated territories and states of the United States outside the jurisdiction of the United States; the person is alien born and can acquire U.S. citizenship by naturalization at birth or after birth.
So you say two citizen parents and born on the soil PERIOD because this was Ted Cruz’s description of a Natural Born citizen in 2012 if you believe a person who interviewed him.
I had thought McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone so now I am getting an understanding of what happened in 2008 - at least I think I am. The democrats agreed to look the other way and so did the GOPe regarding Obama.
I think Trump supporters are insecure and don’t have the ability to think through complex issues.
This has been discussed many times. Proof of birth presented at the US Consulate in the country of birth establishes citizenship.
So we know Cruz has posted his birth certificate online. Do we know if Cruz ever presented his birth certificate to the US Consulate in Canada?
And I understand Cruz had whatever records exist sealed. Why? Do those records show he was naturalized instead of natural born?
“So you say two citizen parents and born on the soil PERIOD “
No, that is slightly incorrect and misleading.
The historical doctrines of jus sanguine, familial descent, the oldest such doctrine, and the later doctrine of jus soli, on the soil, are used to determine membership in the body politic for a purpose that is typically overlooked. That purpose is to determine who is to be entitled to the benefits and the obligations of membership in the society. Each society vests the authority to govern the society in a sovereign. In some societies the sovereign has been some form of monarch. In the United States the sovereign is the body of citizens and their delegates. To become a member of a society requires the acquisition and performance of an allegiance and obligation for obedience to the sovereign authority of that society. For a child born within the jurisdiction of the domestic sovereign with parents already owing their sole allegiance and obedience to the same sovereign and no other sovereign, the only sovereign with a valid claim upon the allegiance and obedience of the child by birth is this one and only domestic sovereign, because no other sovereign is involved. Such a child is natural born with citizenship in this society, because there is and cannot be any other allegiances and obligations for obedience to any foreign sovereign.
Note, birth on the soil may or may not be a decisive factor in determining whether or not a person is a natural born citizen, because the purpose of looking at birth on the soil is to discover whether or not the child is born with an undivided loyalty to only the domestic sovereign and no such allegiance to a foreign sovereign. This is why royalty, ambassadors, some soldiers, and other persons and their families present in a foreign sovereign’s jurisdiction and who have been accorded diplomatic immunity can be natural born citizens abroad. The diplomatic immunity keeps the foreign sovereignty and obligation for allegiance from becoming applicable to the child born abroad. Being born on the soil is only a means of trying to determine whether or not the child is born with a disqualifying obligation of allegiance to a foreign sovereign in those circumstances where diplomatic immunity is not involved.
This is so interesting and makes sense since the ultimate issue is divided or undivided loyalty.
Thank you so much for expanding on the background and the details!
You have been misinformed and are repeating the misinformation.
“Trump needs to knock that off.”
Trump spoke the plain truth, Ted Cruz is not a natural born citizen of the U.S. He is a naturalized citizen of the U.S. Being a naturalized citizen of the U.S., Ted Cruz is not eligible to be a lawful POTUS.
“If I’d had my children in France, they would still be US citizens because I am a US citizen.”
Such children of yours would probably become U.S. citizens if you and they chose to be so after birth. You and/or your children could choose to not adopt their right to become U.S. citizens naturalized at birth. Children born abroad with a U.S. citizen parent voluntarily choose whether or not they want to acquire U.S. citizenship at birth or after birth. A person born in the jurisdiction of the United States with two U.S. citizens involuntarily acquires U.S. citizenship by birth, because they have no choice in becoming a U.S. citizen. Naturalized U.S. citizens, whether at birth or after birth, must acquire U.S. citizenship by voluntarily acquiring that citizenship.
It should be remembered that your children born in France would have been born without any form of U.S. citizenship at all, naturalized at birth and natural born, through much of U.S. history. Your children born in those years would have had to immigrate and naturalize in the same way as the children of any other foreign born persons with foreign parents.
“I’m far from a Trumpbot, but this is dirty underwear level.”
Is it, when you Trump speaks some truths while you disseminate such false information?
You got it!
“I think Trump supporters are insecure and don’t have the ability to think through complex issues.”
That must qualify you as a Trump supporter by your definition.
“phoney birther nonsense..”
What is it going to take to persuade you that Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Bobby Jindal, and Nikki Haley are not natural born citizens and are ineligible to lawfully become POTUS, or are beyond the reach of reason?
What is it going to take for you to stop ignoring Trumps liberal past and cronyism and name one consistent conservative candidate or cause that your RINO has ever supported.
“What is it going to take for you to stop ignoring Trumps liberal past and cronyism and name one consistent conservative candidate or cause that your RINO has ever supported.”
Why do you call Trump “your RINO” when I have repeatedly said I have not endorsed Trump? I am only pointing to the fact that Ted Cruz is a naturalized U.S. citizen, and he is therefore not a natural born citizen as required by the Constitution to be an eligible or lawful POTUS. Furthermore, Ted Cruz has been caught repeatedly telling lies and engaging in other acts that clearly indicate he is not living up to the responsibilities and obligations of an actual conservative. Instead, his actions demonstrate that he is using the pretense of being a conservative to seek power by deceiving would be conservatives into lending Ted Cruz the political support he needs to acquire that political power. Opposition to Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Bobby Jindal, and Nikki Haley because of their illegal pretenses of being eligible to become POTUS is no endorsement of any other candidates whatsoever. It is only the performance of a sworn duty to protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, including pretenders to the Office of the President.
Aside from the eligibility issue, Ted Cruse and Marco Rubio are unacceptable candidates for a whole host of issues,, and the Cruz supporters are not helping themselves one iota by insulting the people who disagree with the blind support being given to aid and abet Ted Cruz’s misconduct.
If you didn’t want Donald C. Trump to win the Republican nomination by default, you should have stopped this business of pushing forward ineligible and poor candidates a long time ago and recruited someone to be a candidate with enough good business sense to compete on Trump’s level of accomplishments and politicking skill. And don’t try to pretend that comment is some kind of an endorsement of Trump, because it is not. Wise persons no when to respect a skilled competitor.
Don’t know. don’t care. 6-8 months of talk can NOT out weigh 10-20 years of it.
Don’t trust the Donald.
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