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Architect of Cain's 9-9-9 plan says he should drop the sales tax
The Hill ^ | 10-18-11 | Jonathan Easley

Posted on 10/18/2011 12:28:10 PM PDT by Brookhaven

Economist Stephen Moore, one of the architects of presidential contender Herman Cain’s 9-9-9 tax plan, said Cain needs to rework a critical component of the plan.

Cain’s plan would replace the current tax structure with a 9 percent corporate tax rate, a 9 percent personal income tax rate and a 9 percent federal sales tax. But speaking on Larry Kudlow’s radio show on Saturday, Moore said the sales tax should be replaced with a 9 percent payroll tax.

“I’ve come to the conclusion that the American people and the voters do not want a national sales tax,” he said. “[Cain’s] going to have to replace that national sales tax with a 9 percent payroll tax. And if you do that, it’s a total winner.”

The plan has been under fire from both the left and the right since Cain’s recent surge in the polls. Democrats say the plan would lower the tax burden on the wealthy while increasing the burden on the middle class, and Republicans say the sales tax opens an additional revenue stream for the federal government to abuse.

“I’m surprised how hostile people are to the sales tax,” Moore continued. “When we designed this plan, I thought people would go along with the 9 percent sales tax. But the point is they won’t. And why not just do a payroll tax? It’s the devil we know.”

At the last Republican debate, in New Hampshire, Minnesota Rep. Michele Bachmann said that if you turn the 9-9-9 plan upside down, “the devil is in the details.”

Moore, who developed the plan with economist Arthur Laffer and Wells Fargo wealth manager Rich Lowrie, said he would advise Cain to drop the sales tax, but that the plan was solid otherwise.

“I want to be very, very clear on this,” he said. “I am not bearish on this plan. If you could put in place the 9-9-9 plan, oh my God, it would be like steroids in the economy. … You would have a million jobs a month if we put this in place. … I love the concept of it … but the American people will not go for a national sales tax. They’re just afraid of it.”


TOPICS: Campaign News; Issues
KEYWORDS: 999; arthurlaffer; artlaffer; hermancain; laffer; richlowrie; stephenmoore
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To: Brookhaven; montyspython; Polybius
Both of you quit sidetracking this thread. We’re discussing the modified version of 9-9-9 that does not contain a sales tax.

A "modified version of 9-9-9 that does NOT contain a sales tax"?

Any such "Plan" without the National Retail Sales Tax is a totally different animal that has absolutely nothing to do with the original "9-9-9 Plan".

Are you finally admitting that the 9-9-9 Plan that now has the National Retail Sales Tax as it's main pillar is actually the "insane" idea that Herman Cain said it was back in his November article?

Is the Cain campaign only about catchy slogans and keeping the catchy names and the actual ideas be damned?

"Stupid idea but great catchy name. Tell you what, let's totally change the original idea but keep the really catchy name."

The 9-9-9 Plan is what it is: A dumb idea. Herman Cain himself explained why in his November article.

Transferring the catchy "9-9-9" name to something completely different will not change that fact.

"If you call a tail a leg, how many legs has a dog? Five? No, calling a tail a leg don't make it a leg. ..... Abraham Lincoln

61 posted on 10/18/2011 1:38:36 PM PDT by Polybius (Defeating Obama should be Priority Number One.)
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To: Polybius

9-9-9 is a great radio talk show meme. Great on paper, works like magic, but in the real world is just a load of BS and a total waster of time, full of skittles and unicorn turds.

And we need an amateur like this for President. No way.


62 posted on 10/18/2011 1:41:12 PM PDT by magritte
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63 posted on 10/18/2011 1:42:30 PM PDT by TheOldLady (FReepmail me to get ON or OFF the ZOT LIGHTNING ping list)
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To: redinIllinois
” on top of everything we already pay in federal taxes.”

Did you miss that part of Cain’s quote on purpose?

Did you, on purpose, miss the part where Cain said that any original low rate means absolutely nothing because initial low rates rates are ALWAYS jacked up?

The "9-9-9" of 2013, according to Cain's November agument, will be the "X-X-X" of future years with X certainly being greater than 9%.

Did you, on purpose, miss the part where Cain said that introducing a brand new National Retail Sales Tax "gives the out-of-control bureaucrats and politicians in denial one more tool to lie, deceive, manipulate and destroy this country"?

64 posted on 10/18/2011 1:46:39 PM PDT by Polybius (Defeating Obama should be Priority Number One.)
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To: Durus
The problem with any tax plan is that it can go up.

That's least likely for a tax that hits all the voters. It's harder for the libtards to buy votes when they have to use the voters' own money.

65 posted on 10/18/2011 1:51:27 PM PDT by cynwoody
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To: Polybius

Instead of raising taxes on anyone, we should focus on cut, cut, cut with no ifs, ands or buts. This will be Cain’s undoing.


66 posted on 10/18/2011 1:53:32 PM PDT by Captain Kirk
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To: magellan
We desperately need to stop taxing labor (current taxes are not “income” taxes, they are labor taxes) and start taxing consumption.

What about those folks who are retired, or close to it? They had their income taxed all their lives, changing to a consumption based tax would hit them a second time.

67 posted on 10/18/2011 1:54:12 PM PDT by Darth Reardon (No offense to drunken sailors)
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To: Polybius; All
Memo to all:

There is an entire thread debunking the misinformation Polybius is posting here.

Read the discussion there and decide for yourself.

68 posted on 10/18/2011 1:54:38 PM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: SoJoCo
9% beats 15.3%.

But is almost twice the 5.65% that most people currently pay.

You don't get to play by two different sets of rules. If you're only going to consider the "employee" portion of the payroll tax, then you'll have to also predict that Cain's tax would be implemented under the same rules: half paid by employee, and half by employer.

Under those rules their tax drops from 5.65% to 4.5%. And since the employee porting is scheduled to go back up to 7.65% in January, at the time 999 was enacted it would be a drop from 7.65% to 4.5%.

Under apples to apples, it would be a 3.15% tax cut for employees.

69 posted on 10/18/2011 1:55:23 PM PDT by Brookhaven (I oppose an electric border fence, because it might kill the alligators in the moat)
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To: redinIllinois

We don’t need tax increases on ANYONE. We need to cut, cut, cut both taxes and spending with no ifs, ands, and buts. Cain’s plan detracts from this goal.


70 posted on 10/18/2011 1:56:15 PM PDT by Captain Kirk
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

Exactly.

The beauty of the NST is that it is open and notorious. This, in fact, is the whole point of using a NST rather than some other, once again hidden tax.

The fact that a NST is open and notorious, and applies to everyone, is exactly what will keep it from being the jellybean jar for liberal free-stuff programs.

This is not just about revenue, Mr. Moore! It’s also about putting a tax system in place that gives We The People greater ability to hold Congress’ feet to the fire.


71 posted on 10/18/2011 1:57:06 PM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: magritte
9-9-9 is a great radio talk show meme. Great on paper, works like magic, but in the real world is just a load of BS and a total waster of time, full of skittles and unicorn turds. And we need an amateur like this for President. No way.

Cain was, in fact, just looking for something, anything, "Bold" and he gave the job of dreaming it up to somebody that just had a B.S. in Accounting.

=======================

From fan to The Man: How Cleveland's Rich Lowrie claimed a place in Herman Cain's inner circle

That's how Lowrie found himself this summer on a New Hampshire-bound flight with Cain, sketching the tax-reform plan that in recent weeks has become a household name and helped Cain surge to the head of the Republican field.

"I had one question for him," Lowrie said of the chat. "How bold do you want to be?"

Cain, "with his signature smile and booming voice," leaned in and replied: "Bold."

And so, "9-9-9" was born -- a proposal to replace the federal tax code with a flat 9 percent tax on personal income and businesses and a 9 percent national sales tax.

=======================

Plug in the most gimmicky numbers cath-phrase in the history of sales "9.99" ......

...... and there you have it: "The 9-9-9 Plan".

While Cain was writing an article in November, Cain warned that “The worst idea is a proposed national sales tax, which is a disguised VAT” because it would be “one more tool to lie, deceive, manipulate and destroy this country”. As Cain points out in the article, “In every country that has established a VAT with the promise of reducing their national debt, the VAT has eventually gone up or expanded on top of the existing tax structure. .... For the liberal naysayers who say that would not happen, you lose! Just look at the Social Security system, Medicare and Medicaid. Over the years since their inception, taxes have gone up, …”

Yet, the 9-9-9 Plan had already been cooked up by Rich Lowrie the Summer before after Cain simply instructed him to be “Bold”.

In short, in order to be a “Shock Jock”, Cain asked a guy with only a bachelor's degree in accountancy from Case Western Reserve University to come up with something “Bold” and, after plugging in the most gimmicky numbers know to sales marketing, “9.99”, that Plan is being pushed by Cain even though the lynchpin of that Plan was soundly trashed by Cain in this article that he wrote last November.

Cain is a snake oil salesman.

72 posted on 10/18/2011 1:58:47 PM PDT by Polybius (Defeating Obama should be Priority Number One.)
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To: Brookhaven

I think it’s better to try to educate people on how much more power they would have to control the NST than to just drop it in the face of the initial wave of opposition.

It’s way too early for that and the discussion that can be had on the NST, and why it’s transparency helps us limit government, is too important to shut off at this stage of the game.


73 posted on 10/18/2011 1:59:20 PM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: magritte

For the last 20 years:

“I’ve come to the conclusion that the American people and the voters do not want entitlement reform.”

Stupid response: Duh.


74 posted on 10/18/2011 2:00:48 PM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: SoJoCo
But is almost twice the 5.65% that most people currently pay.

First of all, that rate is temporary (see footnote c).

Second and more important, it ignores the employer contribution, which is also employee compensation, even though mislabeled by Congress with intent to deceive. If FICA and Medicare went away, not only would the deductions go away, but your gross wages would go up.

75 posted on 10/18/2011 2:01:18 PM PDT by cynwoody
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To: avacado

That’s a good point.

One of the *principles* that 999 is attempting to implement is that everyone pays taxes. This is crucial to making the Laffer Curve work — it requires broadening the tax base.

This is so important! I am having trouble understanding why conservatives don’t see how much our freedom depends upon stopping the parasite class from topping 50% in our nation — the point at which the rest of us would NEVER have enought votes to shut down ever-more voracious demands for free stuff.


76 posted on 10/18/2011 2:03:23 PM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: milwguy

I caught that too. Important.

As soon as I read the outline of Cain’s 999 plan on his website, I could tell it had a lot of work and thought behind it.


77 posted on 10/18/2011 2:05:21 PM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: cynwoody
First of all, that rate is temporary

But it is the current rate.

Second and more important, it ignores the employer contribution, which is also employee compensation, even though mislabeled by Congress with intent to deceive.

That's a bunch of crap. The employer part is part of their cost of doing business, and if that FICA tax was done away with tomorrow then the company would keep the cost savings and use it however they wish. The employee would not reap any benefit from that.

If FICA and Medicare went away, not only would the deductions go away, but your gross wages would go up.

And would Cain pass legislation mandating that? If not, what guarantee do you have?

78 posted on 10/18/2011 2:08:22 PM PDT by SoJoCo
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To: MattinNJ
The danger with 9-9-9 is that it will become 20-20-20

Your taxes under the present system could go up to 90-90-90% infinite. And they will (see FDR) if we don't do something to keep the nontaxpayers in the country from going over 50% of the population, which will happen soon.

Under 999, tax increases would be much more politically difficult. Why? Because 100% of 100% of congresscritters' constituents would be affected by any increase. And because any increase would be immediately and clearly visible to 100% of the people paying the increase.

79 posted on 10/18/2011 2:09:36 PM PDT by fightinJAG (NO REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION! Everyone should pay taxes, everyone should pay the same rate.)
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To: Brookhaven
You don't get to play by two different sets of rules. If you're only going to consider the "employee" portion of the payroll tax, then you'll have to also predict that Cain's tax would be implemented under the same rules: half paid by employee, and half by employer.

The article didn't state that it would. It said that the 9% sales tax should be replaced by a 9% payroll tax. Since the sales tax hit the individual alone one would assume the payroll tax would as well.

80 posted on 10/18/2011 2:10:26 PM PDT by SoJoCo
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