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Another conservative criticism of Herman Cain’s 9-9-9 plan
Freedom Works Blog and New York Times via United Liberty Blog ^
| October 7, 2011
Posted on 10/08/2011 5:51:10 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
Earlier this week, I noted some of the criticism of Herman Cain’s 9-9-9 plan from conservative circles, Kevin Williamson of the National Review chalks it up as “wishful thinking that borders on fantasy,” while Dan Mitchell of the Cato Institute doesn’t like that it keeps the income tax in the tax code.
Dean Clancy, vice president of FreedomWorks — a leading tea party organization, sees good in the proposal; but notes that there are some glaring problems that could lay the precendent for bad tax policy in the future:
The first problem is that it doesn’t get rid of the income tax. In fact, it adds a new tax — a national sales tax — on top of the income tax. Cain clearly intends that eventually the income tax will be eliminated. But what’s to guarantee that outcome? And if we want to get rid of the income tax — and we should — why not do it right from the start? Is it possible that he realizes that if he did it all in one step, folks might not be as keen on the plan (say, because his national sales tax would have to be closer to 25% than 9%)?
[,,,]
The second problem with Cain’s plan is more serious. The plan puts in place the infrastructure for a VAT — a Value Added Tax. That’s bad. Very bad.
A VAT is a form of national sales tax that is collected at every stage of the process from the initial gathering of raw materials to the final sale to the end consumer. It is the most insidious of all taxes, because it is built into the price of everything and consumers can’t see how much of the price is due to the tax. So when prices rise due to a tax hike, consumers assume it’s just prices rising due to market forces. Politicians love this about a VAT. They can take more money out of our wallets than with other, more transparent forms of taxation. Taxpayers should hate it for the very same reason.
European countries have much higher overall tax takes than does the United States. Why? Because the Europeans all have VATs, and we do not. Total receipts of the US Government since World War II have averaged about 18 percent of GDP and have never exceeded 20.9 percent (the peak, in 1944). By comparison, the “Big Six” European countries’ total receipts since the early 1970s when VATs became ubiquitous have not been less than 30 percent of GDP and today average a little over 40 percent! Twice as high as in the US.
Well, you say, Cain’s national sales tax isn’t a VAT. Okay, that’s true. But guess what? Europe’s first VATs all started out life as national sales taxes. Sales taxes are relatively easy to evade. VATs are much harder to evade. So sales taxes have a habit of evolving into VATs. That’s what happened in Europe. And it’s what will happen here, if we adopt Cain’s sales tax.
But Cain isn’t running on serious policy proposals. The guy knows how to market and pitch an idea; after all, the 9-9-9 plan is easy to remember and the one-liners that he is tossing out are catchy. This may be good for selling pizzas, but not for tax policy. And the lack of seriousness is best exemplified by his campaign, which has no campaign stops in early primary states this month:
[A]ccording to his public campaign calendar of events, where 19 of the 31 days of October are blank, there will not be much glad-handing in the immediate future. That is just fine with Mr. Cain, a former business executive who has recently surged to the top tier of candidates in early polls. The latest Quinnipiac University poll, released Wednesday, found Mitt Romney and Mr. Cain essentially tied within the polls margin of sampling error.
Im trying to run this campaign like a start-up business, which means lean and mean, Mr. Cain said in an interview on Tuesday, wearing his signature black cowboy hat. Theres a new sheriff in town.
[…]
But it is not clear that Mr. Cain, 65, has any particular plan to seize this moment, beyond using the attention to sell books. Like the other candidates vying to become credible alternatives to Mr. Romney and Mr. Perry, Mr. Cain is operating on a shoestring. He raised $2 million last spring. More money is coming in, he said, and he has 40 staff members, mostly in Southern states. Still, an adviser to the campaign said the campaign had only four people working in Iowa, and there is no plan to change strategy.
Many Republicans doubt this will be enough to launch Mr. Cain in the crucial early states, especially if he decides to avoid retail politics.
No candidate can afford to spend two or three weeks not being in New Hampshire this year, said Steve Duprey, a Republican National Committee member from the state. He has not made as much progress organizing in New Hampshire as he could have, but theres time.
Cain defends this by saying he’s been to Iowa nearly 30 times since the beginning of the year. That’s fine, but organization is key and at least four other campaigns (Bachmann, Paul, Perry, and Romney) are investing time and/or money there. Not to mention that there are four other primaries/caucuses in January that Cain’s campaign needs to drop resources into.
With Cain you’ve got a master of the soundbyte that has the populist appeal to get his party’s base excited, yet his inexperience and lack of substance are real concerns. Wait, that reminds me of someone…Herman Cain is the Republican Barack Obama.
TOPICS: Parties
KEYWORDS: 999; hermancain; neinneinnein; taxplan
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To: RobertClark
This argument about “future congress's will raise the tax rate’ is absurd
The same argument being placed here applies even more so to the current system. There is nothing to stop the current tax rates being hiked 20-50-80%
This argument is completely without any rational merit. It is the desperate flailing around by the status quo bots desperate to keep the current political crony rewarding tax system in place.
Every complaint being levied at the Cain plan is even more relevant to the current corrupt failed tax system.
Raising tax rates is actually harder under 9-9-9 since everyone pays so it is impossible to hide tax hikes as being only on business or on the rich
No tax system will ever be perfect. 9-9-9 eliminates most of the current failed corrupt flaws in the current system while adding NO new flaws.
Arguing, as this author is, that we should cling to our current failed system because any replacement will not be absolutely perfect is childish and irrational.
81
posted on
10/08/2011 8:04:48 PM PDT
by
MNJohnnie
(Giving more money to DC to fix the Debt is like giving free drugs to addicts think it will cure them)
To: EGPWS
Implementing a VAT tax for the first time is moving toward a fair tax?? Sorry either you are completely ignorant of 9-9-9 or what a VAT tax is. People in the news media who throw out the term VAT in regards to 9-9-9 are either ignorant are knowingly lying. VAT taxes every level of production and hides the cost of the tax inside the cost of goods. It makes all business the Government's cut out tax collector. Therefore VAT is a much more opaque and different form of taxation then a Sales Tax which taxes only at the final point of sale.
VAT is a completely different form of taxation then what is in the 9-9-9 plan. >
Those commentators that throw out the term "VAT" in relationship to 9-9-9 are either completely ignornat of what is in 9-9-9 or knowingly lying.
82
posted on
10/08/2011 8:07:28 PM PDT
by
MNJohnnie
(Giving more money to DC to fix the Debt is like giving free drugs to addicts think it will cure them)
To: mylife
Not even remotely honest.
What you are is a feverish Perry supporter who for weeks as been spamming this board with knowing misstatements, distortions and out and out lies about Cain.
What smacks of desperation is this new attempt by you to pretend to be anything but a knee jerk unthinking supporter of Perry.
83
posted on
10/08/2011 8:09:53 PM PDT
by
MNJohnnie
(Giving more money to DC to fix the Debt is like giving free drugs to addicts think it will cure them)
To: Blood of Tyrants
I agree. NEVER give the Rats a new way to tax without getting some other tax removed in return. So instead you want to cling to the current failed tax system that taxes 40-45% of your income thur direct and indirect taxation rather then see your tax burden reduced via a sales tax? .
84
posted on
10/08/2011 8:11:16 PM PDT
by
MNJohnnie
(Giving more money to DC to fix the Debt is like giving free drugs to addicts think it will cure them)
To: MNJohnnie
Bingo! There are several golden by products in the 9-9-9 plan and this is my second favorite.
Sorry but you have it exactly backwards. The billions of dollars in the current underground economy can not longer stay underground in the 9-9-9 system since the underground economy always comes above ground to bye consumer goods. 9-9-9 eliminates the ability to "Work off the books" or "get paid in cash"."
To: MNJohnnie
Oh? That’s the way it is, is it?
86
posted on
10/08/2011 8:22:24 PM PDT
by
mylife
(The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
To: MNJohnnie
The current system STARTED as a 1/2% tax on income over $500k. The current income tax code has over 50,000 pages with thousands and thousands of special exemptions and lets not forget the AMT.
Go all or nothing. Get rid of the income tax before we go to an NST.
87
posted on
10/08/2011 8:27:35 PM PDT
by
Blood of Tyrants
(Islam is the religion of Satan and Mohammed was his minion.)
To: MNJohnnie
You do not like My Beaudreux hat comment?
How is this more offensive than the years of attacks on Folks in Texas?
I think I have been fair and even on most of these discussions, I refrain from throwing cultural fire bombs, and after decades of jokes about pointy toed Texas boots and Cowboy hats, you get all worked up that I said Beaudreux hat.
What is it that offends you?
88
posted on
10/08/2011 8:31:26 PM PDT
by
mylife
(The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
To: SeekAndFind
“Nein, nein, nein” to ‘9-9-9’.
To: MNJohnnie
I like Herman's moxie I really do, but his 999 Plan is horribly laid out, it is ripe for failure and his "signature black" Beaudreux hat smacks of desperation. What about that offends you?
90
posted on
10/08/2011 8:35:18 PM PDT
by
mylife
(The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
To: MNJohnnie
OK, I will take a poke at your rational.
You don’t like that I quoted the article for saying “Signature Black Hat”
91
posted on
10/08/2011 8:41:40 PM PDT
by
mylife
(The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
I didn’t quite quote it I made fun of how ridiculous it is.
92
posted on
10/08/2011 8:44:13 PM PDT
by
mylife
(The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
To: MNJohnnie
Listen Chum....
My only issue with Cain is that his 999 plan needs serious vetting and that he has NO experience.
I want to believe, but he aint swaying me at the moment.
93
posted on
10/08/2011 8:47:35 PM PDT
by
mylife
(The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
To: mylife
As I see it:
Cain’s plan eliminates the games that people play with taxes to avoid paying them, it levels the playing field, and will FORCE some people to actually TAKE the jobs that will be created — in other words, WORK for a living and start paying taxes.
I think this would improve our country many times over. I’ts about time — and I’m damn sick of working like a dog, making good money, but seeing most of it go to the government so they can give it to people to won’t work, or who are illegal, or who work under the table and have better clohtes and cars that WE do!
Everyone wants to criticize Cain’s plan — but they refuse to look at the monstrosity we have NOW. What we have now is UNSUSTAINABLE!! At least Cain’s plan is a START.
To: PerryBachmann2012
10% of taxpayers pay 90% of taxes. That includes me who paid $178,000 in income tax last year. 9-9-9 will give us a big break. Yea for the 10%
50% of people pay none. We'll fix them.
Another 25% pf people pay less than 10%. We'll raise their taxes with 9-9-9. Works for me.
9-9-9 will raise taxes on about 75% of all taxpayers. Fairness is right around the corner.
Let's convince those 75% just how fair this is. I mean it worked so well for Walter Mondale when he promised to raise everyones taxes, right?
Seriously, this thing won't even convince the 1/3 of the nation who are Republicans. It's going to be an epic fail with the other 2/3.
To: LibsRJerks
A start is far from sustainable.
How will he get his way if he, in his own words begs upon the Super committee?
96
posted on
10/08/2011 8:53:25 PM PDT
by
mylife
(The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
To: LibsRJerks
READ his plan! It is gobbeldygook@!
97
posted on
10/08/2011 8:54:57 PM PDT
by
mylife
(The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
To: SeekAndFind
And if we want to get rid of the income tax and we should why not do it right from the start? I have always favored a flat tax, which I assumed woult be about 17%.
I have never favored a national sales tax, I think I see all kinds of problems with it. But a lot of my friends think we should eliminate the income tax and go with the sales tax.
So, Cain's idea is attractive to me in that it gives us both a flat tax and a sales tax and (to me) that gives us the chance to test both. He may believe we'd phase out the income tax portion in favor of a sales tax only, while I think we'd see the problems I think we'll have with the sales tax and move toward a flat tax only. But for an interim plan, it gives us a chance to get half in before diving all the way in. A pilot plan, in effect, to test both at a low rate before going all the way with either.
98
posted on
10/08/2011 9:02:02 PM PDT
by
marron
To: Donnafrflorida
Newbie? What a dork! I don’t think I have a lot to learn except what an a**hat you are. BTW, I will not answer any more of your ridiculous comments. Bye.
99
posted on
10/08/2011 11:34:21 PM PDT
by
calex59
To: calex59
Who the he.ll are you and what are you referring to?
100
posted on
10/08/2011 11:40:01 PM PDT
by
Donnafrflorida
(Thru HIM all things are possible.)
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