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To: JameRetief
The article seems contrary to most that I have read concerning the Noldor. The writer contends that "half the Tatyar(Noldor) remained as Avari." Later he attributes "the Green Elves of Ossiriand were in fact Avari, Tatyarin Avari." How's that? The Green Elves, or Laiquendi, were a large faction of Nandor who were granted Ossiriand by the Sindar. After Denethor's death they refused to name a new leader and fragmented.

The writer also lumps the Eglath (later the Sindar) and the Falathrim together. This is completely wrong as these groups were separately formed and (initially) did not associate for the most part.

The writer also speculates that the Silvan Elves were part of the "Nelyarin Avari which made as far west as Anduin, and there they mingled or supplanted the Nandor who were still living in Greenwood and Lothloren". Why do the Nandor need replacing? The Nandor who remained in Greenwood would likely be referred to as Silvan by their kin who followed Lenwe to the Vales of the Anduin.

Much is being inferred here in regards to the Avari. The Avari remained in the East, refusing (hence their name) to take part in the Great Journey. Tolkien says only that their lands became barbarous and filled with dark powers and evil races. This caused them to hide in the woodlands. Thus, they built no cities and had no kings. They subsequently dwindled as a people. Perhaps too much is being attributed to the Avari. The history of the Eastern Elves is primarily that of the Umanyar and those of the Eldar who returned in pursuit of the Silmaril.

4 posted on 03/06/2003 7:59:21 AM PST by Gwaihir
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To: golindseygo
golindseygo wrote:
"The article seems contrary to most that I have read concerning the Noldor. The writer contends that 'half the Tatyar(Noldor) remained as Avari.' Later he attributes "the Green Elves of Ossiriand were in fact Avari, Tatyarin Avari." How's that?"

The article draws upon information published in THE WAR OF THE JEWELS and other volumes of THE HISTORY OF MIDDLE-EARTH (a series of twelve books published by Christopher Tolkien, documenting his father's work on various mythologies which led to the publication of THE LORD OF THE RINGS and THE SILMARILLION). My essays usually summarize bits and pieces of information which is scattered across as many as twenty Tolkien books.

And what I wrote was: "...After Denethor's death some of his people left Ossiriand and settled in Arthorien, the southeastern march of Doriath. These were called the Guest-elves, and some of them appear to have been Tatyarin Elves in origin."

The Guest-elves were a very small group of Elves living in Doriath. Saeros, the Elf who tormented the young Turin, was one of those Guest-elves.

"The writer also lumps the Eglath (later the Sindar) and the Falathrim together. This is completely wrong as these groups were separately formed and (initially) did not associate for the most part."

Both groups were Sindarin Elves.

The name "Sindar" was given by the Noldor to just the Elves of Mithrim (a region in Hithlum, technically OUTSIDE of Beleriand), but it was later extended to include all of the Elves who acknowledged Thingol as their king. That includes the Falathrim as well as the Eglath.

"The writer also speculates that the Silvan Elves were part of the 'Nelyarin Avari which made as far west as Anduin, and there they mingled or supplanted the Nandor who were still living in Greenwood and Lothloren'. Why do the Nandor need replacing? The Nandor who remained in Greenwood would likely be referred to as Silvan by their kin who followed Lenwe to the Vales of the Anduin."

The information is derived from Tolkien's "Quendi and Eldar" essay, published in THE WAR OF THE JEWELS. It is as accurate as any summarization of non-canonical Tolkien material can be.

8 posted on 03/09/2003 10:42:44 AM PST by Michael Martinez
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