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The Hobbit Hole III - Journey to the Cross-roads!

Posted on 12/17/2002 7:32:02 AM PST by HairOfTheDog

Welcome to The Hobbit Hole!

Journey to the Cross-roads

The Two Towers Edition

Come on! Come in! -if you would like to have some seedcakes and a pint and relax a while. (If it is a special occasion, we still have a few bottles of the old wineyards left!)

Our first thread ( New Zealander builds Hobbit hole ) reached 4,100 posts, and we thought that was big. Our second thread (The New Hobbit Hole ) held us for over 48,000 posts, and we loved it dearly. We talked about moving to a new thread for the last 38,000 posts, but we are really slow to muster! Finally, the time has come. Tomorrow (at 12:01 am, to be precise!) The Two Towers comes out, and we start a new chapter.


TOPICS: The Hobbit Hole
KEYWORDS: 65536; 65537acaguy; albinoectomorphs; allelvesgotoheaven; androgynouselves; archerskickbutt; awoldwarves; axesarebetter; backgammon; barukkhazd; bashfuldwarfie; bearluckysnaig; blowitoutyershorts; boxfans; bubyesaddam; buysomeprunes; cantwaitforentmoot; catholiclist; celeborndoesdishes; chickencavedweller; chickendance; chiptheglasses; chucktaylors; cookies; cookinwithvelveeta; corinbdaysnaig; corinspamicane; cowardlyelves; cracktheplates; cutiebootie; docdwarfie; dopeydwarfie; dourelves; dwarfcanjump; dwarfcantrun; dwarfiesstayhome; dwarflax; dwarfneedsbath; dwarfruleelfdrool; dwarfsissies; dwarfsmitheesrule; dwarfthink; dwarftossingfun; dwarfwethimself; dwarvishcapitalists; elevensies; elfbash; elfenvyanonymous; elfscreamslikewoman; elfskirts; elrondstiara; elvenandrogyny; elveshugtrees; elvesrunfromdanger; elvessinginfalsetto; elvirasgreenbikini; elvishelitists; endoftheinternet; entmoot; feyelves; findmeabox; fitsnicelyinkeywords; flatfrodo; flittyelfdance; frodolives; fuzzywuzzytoes; girliedwarves; gnadthreadkiller; gollumthegreat; grumpydwarfie; hairtiredofbashing; happydwarfie; hihohihohiho; hobbit; hobbitbedhead; hobbithole; hobbitskinflicks; hotdhobbitdreams; hubbahubba; irregularelves; ishkhaqwiaidurugnul; itsthebeards; jrrstandsforwhat; khazdaimnu; khuzduluberalles; ksenspamsneeze; letsplaynice; longestthread; maltbeer; minimootsrus; missionquestthing; mushrooms; nastylittledwarfs; naturalsprinters; needsabox; nevertrustadwarf; nevertrustanelf; nicecrispybacon; nicehobbitses; peedpants; peopleofintelligence; poeticdwarves; poorelfwants2bdwarf; princeofhalflings; redmeatoffthebone; roaringfires; rudelittledwarfies; ruthyfastfunkle; saddamisanorc; secondbreakfast; selfrighteousspam; sexysnowpants; sleepydwarfie; smartassspam; smeagolsupreme; snaigedgifs; sneezydwarfie; snootyelves; snowpants; spamfreesmeagol; spamfreezone; specialsmeagol; squeezeitgirdletush; stealthdwarf; stinkysmellydwarf; stubbylegs; surfingelfdudes; suzihonestsnaig; swishswishswish; tempertantrum; testosteronefreeelf; toimplosionandbeyond; tolkienistops; tookmeister; tossme; tossmebabyyeah; trickseyhobbitses; tweeelves; twitteryhobbits; uwishuhadadwarf; waddlewaddlewaddle; wargsnax; wherearemydwarves; whistlingfrogs; zfishispolkadotted
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To: The Iguana
We looked hard for it, but we did not hear it.

I didn't hear it either. Also, I missed hearing Aragorn and company asking Gandalf about Merry and Pippin.

Oh yeah, and I liked the part where the orc brought the candle over to inspect Saruman's...er...handiwork and Saruman had to shoo him away. I guess he hadn't distributed his Material Safety Data Sheet yet. :)

781 posted on 12/19/2002 7:10:22 AM PST by Overtaxed
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To: The Iguana
I bet they cover it in the next movie...I bet it's part of a flashback in the ROTK.
782 posted on 12/19/2002 7:16:45 AM PST by 2Jedismom
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To: Lil'freeper
LF,

Office consensus: The Faramir tweak was not good, although I'm hopeful he'll be developed more fully in the next movie. Wargs rock so does Gollum. The Ents were excellent to look at but their indifference was irksome. Theoden and Aragorn seemed weak (I don't share that opinion). Overall, PJ should have stayed closer to the book with details such as who was at the Deep, the life and times of Eomer, etc. But bottom line, we all loved it.

I am a fairly avid purist myself.

I am not saying I would have done the movie as Jackson did. I would surely have hewed closer to the text. And I wonder if I would have made as compelling a movie for the average filmgoer.

In the end, I understand as a matter of dramatic arc why Jackson made the choices he did. I think nearly all of them are very defensible from that point of view. In the end you have to evaluate everything Jackson does by the standards of what makes for a compelling movie for a general audience - not total fidelity to the original text (much as I would love to see the latter). To film a completely faithful Two Towers would not only require a lot more screen timne, but it would have too many dramatic climaxes, robbing each one of its power. Have the Ents show up at Helm's Deep and you take away the climactic power of the storming of Isengard. Have Shelob put in (in this movie) and you take away from the power of Helm's Deep. And so forth.

I think that the greatest quibble is really Faramir's character. I did not mind the Osgiliath sidetrip (a spectacular set and scene that made up for my annoyance with the liberty taken) so much as I did the sudden reversal in his decision to release Frodo. I think just a bit more time spent on him and some display of inner turmoil over what to do with Frodo would have made for more compelling cinema.

I think what we Tolkien Purists must admit is that our experience of these movies is inevitably going to be different than that of the general audience, and in fact out deep familiarity with the text may be a never completely penetrable barrier to our enjoyment of them.

783 posted on 12/19/2002 7:18:08 AM PST by The Iguana
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To: Overtaxed
Wasn't that Grima with the candle?
784 posted on 12/19/2002 7:18:58 AM PST by 2Jedismom
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To: 2Jedismom
They shouldn't wait. And there is no need to. It takes only a sentence to explain it.

I wager it was a cutting room floor oversight. I have to think they filmed it. Most likely we'll see it on the extended DVD.

785 posted on 12/19/2002 7:19:26 AM PST by The Iguana
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To: Overtaxed
Wasn't it Wormtongue that had the flame?

I don't think Aragorn asked about Merry and Pippin. They didn't ask in the book either (I'm asking here). Maybe they didn't ask because they wouldn't expect Gandalf to know.

Yet, no explanation was given for Aragorn to give up his search of Merry and Pippin. Except maybe there was other pressing problems, and Aragorn, relieved that Merry and Pippin were alive believed that they could take of themselves.

786 posted on 12/19/2002 7:21:15 AM PST by carton253
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To: Overtaxed
If memory serves....wasn't there a battle at Osgiliath (sp?) that happened before the Council of Elrond? Could PJ just have moved that encounter? I don't have my source material with me today!

There was. Boromir talks about it at the Council. The Witch King feinted to test Gondor's defenses, and Boromir denied him the passage - a foothold on the western shore.

Jackson seems to have moved the battle back and drawn Faramir and Frodo into it.

I actually enjoyed that and I did not think I would - mainly because I was enthralled with getting to see the ruins of Osgiliath and the escalating War of the Ring take place there.

I think the only problem is what others have pointed out - Faramir changes his mind a bit abruptly. I think it would have been more compelling to see a more conflicted Faramir deciding to take Frodo back to Gondor but torn in his mind and heart about it, revealing the differences of his character from Boromir's. We really don't get that in the movie, even if he does make the right decision in the end.

787 posted on 12/19/2002 7:25:43 AM PST by The Iguana
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To: carton253
Gandalf talking about the ents.
"A thing is about to happen which has not happened since the Elder Days: the Ents are going to wake up and find that they are strong.'

'What will they do?' asked Legolas in astonishment. 'I do not know,' said Gandalf. 'I do not think they know themselves. I wonder.' He fell silent, his head bowed in thought.

The others looked at him. A gleam of sun through fleeting clouds fell on his hands, which lay now upturned on his lap: they seemed to be filled with light as a cup is with water. At last he looked up and gazed straight at the sun. 'The morning is wearing away,' he said. 'Soon we must go.' 'Do we go to find our friends and to see Treebeard?' asked Aragorn.

'No,' said Gandalf. 'That is not the road that you must take."


788 posted on 12/19/2002 7:27:21 AM PST by 2Jedismom
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To: All
Now that I've had 24 hours to absorb the movie, I can add my thoughts. Excuse me if they are written in an abbreviated fashion.

I really enjoyed Gollum. His character actually inspired a variety of emotions. But in the end, I felt a mix of disgust and pity, which is exactly as I imagine should be the final product.

There was not enough of anything. My complaint is mostly in regards to Merry and Pippin, but the same goes for the Ents in general. I was not too troubled by Faramir's changes, although I do agree that he did not reflect the same character as Tolkien wrote of. But the trip to Osgiliath definitely assisted in painting a picture of Gondorian desperation. There was a lot missing in terms of the book to the movie: Shelob's Lair, The Voice of Saruman, The Palantir, etc. I imagine some if it will be moved to the RoTK, but it will have to be shortened in order to fit everything that happens in that section of the trilogy. I guess I'm an addict, so short of a 6 hour TTT - I knew I would feel shortchanged.

The Oliphants were bigger than I imagined. I loved Gimli's jokes. I wasn't too happy with Legolas surfing down the stairs. I thought the flying Nazgul were perfect and the Eye of Sauron was pretty well developed. The Black Gate was awe inspiring, without a doubt. The rejuvenation of Theoden was excellent and made the vileness of Wormtongue all the more apparent. Eowyn was lovely and I found that Miranda Otto really understood her, the frustration of loving Aragorn and even the Warg attack - you could see how badly she wanted to fight.

OK, I'll post more thoughts as they come. But all in all, I loved it and can't wait to see it again!

789 posted on 12/19/2002 7:27:55 AM PST by RMDupree
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To: Corin Stormhands
You're very welcome, Corin. I am eagerly anticipating your review from a Dwarf perspective. :)

Have fun at the luncheon!

790 posted on 12/19/2002 7:29:44 AM PST by RMDupree
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To: carton253
Jackson seems to lead us to believe that Gandalf mentiond it at some point not depicted before his exhortation that "another step in your journey" is about to commence - we see the "White Wizard" confronting the hobbits and Treebeard, and then Treebeard mention that he had promised Gandalf that he would keep the hobbits safe.

In a way that works quite well. Lucas, you see, would have bothered to show us every step taken and every word spoken, going to ridiculous lengths to explain everything, rather than leaving room for easy interpolation.

PJ is far more economical and it makes him a btter film maker.

791 posted on 12/19/2002 7:30:07 AM PST by The Iguana
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To: 2Jedismom
Wasn't that Grima with the candle?

Was it? I'll have to go see it again! LOL

792 posted on 12/19/2002 7:30:35 AM PST by Overtaxed
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To: The Iguana
I think that PJ was using Sam's speech to change Farimir's mind. What brought Frodo back from total despair also changed Faramir's mind about the ring.

Now, I will admit that was abrupt... but this movie has much that is not resolved... which I believe the PJ did on purpose because he is viewing all three movies as one.

When I first met Faramir in the books, I thought he was severe. So, I buy the Faramir that I saw on screen. I thought PJ played him perfectly. I think that ROTK will show the why of Faramir of letting Frodo go which will sharpen the conflict between Denethor and the Faramir/Gandalf pairing.

793 posted on 12/19/2002 7:30:37 AM PST by carton253
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To: NewCenturions
You wouldn't happen to have a recipe for Ginger Snaps, would you?

Not handy, sorry. But any supermarket bakery should carry some fresh ones this time of year.

794 posted on 12/19/2002 7:30:46 AM PST by RMDupree
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To: carton253
I don't think Aragorn asked about Merry and Pippin. They didn't ask in the book either (I'm asking here).

Someone asked in the books. Gandalf explained about the Ents and Legolas got all excited finding out that there were still Ents in the world.

795 posted on 12/19/2002 7:32:20 AM PST by Overtaxed
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To: 2Jedismom
I knew that you would know. Thanks... I need to read those books again, but I just don't the time.
796 posted on 12/19/2002 7:32:42 AM PST by carton253
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To: carton253
Good job. Congratulations!
797 posted on 12/19/2002 7:35:23 AM PST by My back yard
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To: carton253
Well, I did come in second place on the trivia contest! ;-) Congrats on your 4.0!
798 posted on 12/19/2002 7:37:01 AM PST by 2Jedismom
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To: Overtaxed
Yes, you will have to!
799 posted on 12/19/2002 7:37:30 AM PST by carton253
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To: carton253
Mine?
800 posted on 12/19/2002 7:37:53 AM PST by RMDupree
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