The Hobbit Hole III - Journey to the Cross-roads!

[HairOfTheDog]

Welcome to The Hobbit Hole!

Journey to the Cross-roads
The Two Towers Edition

Come on! Come in! -if you would like to have some seedcakes and a pint and relax a while. (If it is a special occasion, we still have a few bottles of the old wineyards left!)

Our first thread ( New Zealander builds Hobbit hole ) reached 4,100 posts, and we thought that was big. Our second thread (The New Hobbit Hole ) held us for over 48,000 posts, and we loved it dearly. We talked about moving to a new thread for the last 38,000 posts, but we are really slow to muster! Finally, the time has come. Tomorrow (at 12:01 am, to be precise!) The Two Towers comes out, and we start a new chapter.

[Wneighbor]

Be safe Okay??? I want my new friends all safe!

[Overtaxed]

...or something like that.

[Dawntreader]

That's sad!! I guess it shows what great love she had for him to bring that fate upon herself.

WN...Thanks. After I've seen how awful those maps are (lol) I will take a look for their story and read up on it.

[Bear_in_RoseBear]

You beat me to it!

My reading of that passage leads me to conclude that Arwen was fully mortal, and after death her spirit left the "circles of the world" just as Aragorn's did. What she was afraid of was not knowing whether or not they would be re-joined after death, since no one knew the ultimate fate of Men after death.

[RMDupree]

I need a hankie after reading that again! *sob*

I think that she and Aragorn were separated forever after his death. That was the price they paid for wanting to spend his mortal time in Middle Earth together.

[RMDupree]

Safe trip, ecurbh!

We'll keep watch for you from the White Tower until you return!

[Wneighbor]

catnip and lemon balm

That one sounds good. I like both. Never could get lemon balm to grow well at the old place. Am hoping to get a good bed of it growing here. Lack of lemon balm growing was what got me started with the lemon verbena. My great-grandmother used to grow it by her front porch but never used it for anything. I started growing it and it is now one of my favorite flavorings. And it is a wonderful tea by itself or mixed with anything!

[Alkhin]

AGREED AGREED...

my fav arwen moment was when after Elrond told her she would spend her last years in sorrow...the intake of breath was heartbreaking. I thought Liv Tyler did a FINE job as Arwen. And I broke down when Elrond asked her if he had her love too!! Beautiful!

Thanks Hair for the posting! That's solves the question of what physically happened to her. But it doesnt solve the problem of her afterlife. There doesnt seem to be any real specification that those who chose to Die have it any better or as good as those who chose to go across the seas. And I have always taken the trip across the seas as a metaphor for going to heaven...or at least a purgatory. The implication tolkien keeps making is that they are returning to be closer to the Valar/Iluvatar.

So I am guessing then that Arwens choice is because she loves life on Middle Earth so much, she doesnt want to give it up either way.

That makes sense. Elves HAVE to leave ME because their time is up. Would it not then be correct to suppose that Tolkien's pre-Christian era of life after death would be that stagnation or waiting for Christ's arrival? If so, why did he not then implant a 'hope' or prophecy that one greater than Aragorn would arrive to bring peace to those who chose to die???? This is something that really really bothers me.

[Dawntreader]

"I think that she and Aragorn were separated forever after his death. That was the price they paid for wanting to spend his mortal time in Middle Earth together."

I don't like that conclusion! Too sad!

[HairOfTheDog]

But I think the story is that sad!

I have to go into town now for a bit. I am out of CD-Rs...

Back later...

[Overtaxed]

Never could get lemon balm to grow well at the old place

I've got a patch of the stuff that's starting to strike out on its own!

[Alkhin]

Me neither!!! But I think that's the idea I got too: it was a bad situation, and something Jackson pulled out very well..."no matter what you do, Arwen, you will still be separated."

Which really upsets me with Tolkien. It seems like it was just a way to punish people who didnt stick with their own kind!! How can one concieve of an Iluvatar like that?

[Bear_in_RoseBear]

I think that she and Aragorn were separated forever after his death.

I don't necessarily agree... I think both were mortal, and suffered whatever fate Men suffer after death. Maybe they were separated, maybe they were rejoined. But Arwen's choice was to be mortal, just like her Uncle Elros (the first king of Numenor) so ultimately her fate was the same as Aragorn's; we just don't know what that fate was.

[RMDupree]

I agree. Way too sad, but I truly believe that Arwen made that decision because her love for Aragon was so strong, she could not bear away to Valinor and leave him behind as a memory.

Also, remember that she had no idea what "grief" really meant until she experienced it for herself and by then, it was too late to change her mind.

She sacrificed herself for love, just as Juliet did when she woke and saw Romeo dead on the floor. To perish rather than to live without her beloved. *sniff*

[Overtaxed]

I think that she and Aragorn were separated forever after his death. That was the price they paid for wanting to spend his mortal time in Middle Earth together

I thought that it was just that no one knew what happened when they died. I didn't get the impression that Aragorn and Arwen would be forever separated after death, but then maybe I'm missing something.

[Wneighbor]

I think that she and Aragorn were separated forever after his death. That was the price they paid for wanting to spend his mortal time in Middle Earth together. I wonder something now. A couple of times in the Simarillion it mentions the question of what happens to men after death. Neither the elves or the Valor know. And it seems to be the niggling question of the ages (of middle earth.) However, the elves either sail off to Valinor and live eternally, or they may be killed in battle or die of grief and then they go to the place in Valinor prepared to house their souls.

Elves are comfortable in the Simarillion because they have that assurance. Maybe what Arwen is giving up is that assurance. Maybe she's stepping off into the realm of not knowing where she goes when she dies like the men of middle earth.

I've always chosen to think that because of the way Tolkein dealt with handing men's afterlife in The Simarillion that the intention was that men spent their after-life with Iluvatar. There are some references to Iluvatar having some plan for men after life but it's being hidden from both the Valor and the elves.

So, perhaps what Arwen was stepping off into was the "not knowing" that middle earth men had. That's only a suggestion... not meant to be a dogma. Also, Celeborn was one of the last elves to leave. He stayed long after Galadriel left. Perhaps he buried Arwen.

[RMDupree]

I hope yours is the correct view, Bear. It seems better to imagine them reunited than what my theory suggests.

[Dawntreader]

Stop it! I don't need to be crying at work!

;-)

[RMDupree]

Celeborn was one of the last elves to leave. He stayed long after Galadriel left. Perhaps he buried Arwen.

He was already gone too. :(

...she went out from the city of Minas Tirith and passed away to the land of Lórien, and dwelt there alone under the fading trees until winter came. Galadriel had passed away and Celeborn also was gone, and the land was silent.

[RMDupree]

I know what you mean!