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[ Daily Tolkien / Lord Of The Rings ] Middle-earth Connections: Lore of the Rings
Suite 101 ^ | July 14, 2000 | Michael Martinez

Posted on 12/05/2002 3:15:00 AM PST by JameRetief

Point 1: Time stands still for Rings of Power

"'How long do you think I shall have here?' said Frodo to Bilbo when Gandalf had gone.

"'Oh, I don't know. I can't count days in Rivendell,' said Bilbo...."

This exchange, recorded in "The Ring Goes South", is the first indication that Frodo Baggins and his friends have come into the presence of a Ring of Power other than the One Ring which Frodo has carried for many years (since Bilbo left the Shire). The Rings of Power were created to hold back Time, or to delay its effects. But what was the range of their power? Was there some sort of absolute limit to each Ring's chronoinhibition? Would the effects extend this far and no farther?

The curious matter is that the One Ring, the most powerful of all the artifacts so contrived as to hold back Time, only inhibited the effects of Time upon its keeper. The Shire didn't become timeless because Bilbo had brought the Ring there. Bilbo in effect became timeless, and Frodo after him. How is it, then, that no one else was affected, whereas in Rivendell and Lorien the entire lands (but apparently not the non-Elvish inhabitants) were preserved?

Studying the effects of the Rings of Power reveals many apparent inconsistencies in how they worked, and it may be no wonder that Saruman went mad with desire for possessing one (or all) of them.

When Elrond described the powers of the Elven Rings he said "they were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing." His description is quite different from Tolkien's description of the Rings' powers:

"The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e., 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance -- this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor -- thus approaching 'magic', a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination. And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron ('the Necromancer': so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible.

"The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility...." (Letters, No. 131).

It is possible to infer that Elrond's description of the Rings' powers is intended to deflect further inquiry by presenting only examples of their powers. The true nature of the Rings, to hold back the effects of Time, is reflected only in Elrond's brief statement: "So much only in this hour of doubt I may now say. They are not idle."

Indeed, Elrond and Galadriel (unwisely) used their Rings of Power throughout the Third Age to preserve Elven realms. Galadriel's history is unclear, but she probably did not live in Lorien throughout the Third Age. Rather, when it became clear that Amroth's people would all depart from Lorien if nothing were done, she and Celeborn went to live among the Silvan Elves who had not yet departed.

Galadriel took with her Nenya, the Ring of Adamant, and she may have used its power to induce the Silvan Elves to stay in Lorien. We don't know if she actually used the Ring before then (1981 or shortly thereafter). Tolkien says only that "the [One] Ring is lost [at the beginning of the Third Age], for ever it is hoped; and the Three Rings of the Elves, wielded by secret guardians, are operative in preserving the memory of the beauty of old, maintaining enchanted enclaves of peace where Time seems to stand still and decay is restrained, a semblance of the bliss of the True West." (Ibid.)

The departure of Amroth, who had been a stalwart defender of the West throughout the second millennium of the Third Age, may have spurred the Elves into action unlike any they had taken before. It may indeed be that Elrond and Galadriel at last decided to actively use their Rings of Power to forestall a mass exodus of Elves from Middle-earth. If so, they were only delaying the inevitable, which was the purpose intended for the Rings anyway.

Point 2: The Elves cannot stay in Middle-earth

The Elves had been departing Middle-earth for ages. The catastrophe for them in the Third Age was quite different from those of the previous ages. When the Eldar originally sailed over Sea it was at the invitation of the Valar, who had found the Elves in their homeland of Cuivienen. But the Elves were troubled by Melkor, who was then de facto ruler of the majority of Arda. The Valar waged a terrible war against Melkor and his Maiaric servants and bred creatures, and they took him prisoner and brought an end to his terrible reign. But desiring to be in the company of the Elves (whose arrival they had anticipated throughout innumerable ages), and to provide them with a safe haven beyond the reach of Melkor's servants, the Valar summoned the Elves to live with them in Aman, the Uttermost West.

Not all the Elves were willing to leave Middle-earth, which was their homeland and the only place they knew. And of those Elves who accepted the summons, many never made it (alive) over Sea. Still, the first waves of migration out of Middle-earth were "healthy", or made when the Elves were young and strong and not yet weary of the world. Neither were they as deeply entrenched in Middle-earth.

When Feanor rebelled against the Valar, he led most of the Noldor back to Middle-earth (or, rather, led most of them out of Eldamar, and then abandoned the greater part of his people, most of whom chose to follow Fingolfin to Middle-earth). Of these Exiles, the vast majority (and their descendants) were slain or enslaved by Melkor, now returned to Middle-earth as a Dark Lord. The spirits of these slain Elves returned to Aman where they awaited a "rebirth" or "re-embodiment", if such a reward could be earned by their deeds in life.

For the remainder, a terrible curse was imposed. Not the Doom of the Noldor, which was the curse that the Valar lay upon them to fail in their war with Melkor. Rather, they were told that "those that endure in Middle-earth shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after." (Silmarillion, "Of the Flight of the Noldor")

This doom was applied, really, to all the Elves, and was perhaps a warning more than a judgement. In describing the events of the Second Age for Milton Waldman (a publisher who considered THE LORD OF THE RINGS at a time when Tolkien had withdrawn the book from Allen & Unwin), JRRT wrote "the three main themes are thus The Delaying Elves that lingered in Middle-earth; Sauron's growth to a new Dark Lord, master and god of Men; and Numenor-Atlantis."

After the final overthrow of Morgoth in the War of Wrath, Eonwë (herald of Manwë and leader of the Host of Valinor) travelled throughout Middle-earth, summoning all Elves once again to sail over Sea. The invitation which previously had been withdrawn to include only the Eldar (the original Elves who had actually accepted the summons the first time) was now extended to ALL Elves. Many of the surviving Noldor and Sindar of Beleriand responded and left Middle-earth. But the remaining Noldor and Sindar joined the Nandor and Avari in Middle-earth. They "lingered".

Tolkien notes that "in the first [Second Age theme] we see a sort of second fall or at least 'error' of the Elves. There was nothing wrong essentially in their lingering against counsel, still sadly with the mortal lands of their old heroic deeds. But they wanted to have their cake without eating it. They wanted the peace and bliss and perfect memory of 'The West', and yet to remain on ordinary earth where their prestige as the highest people, above wild Elves, dwarves, and Men, was greater than at the bottom of the hierarchy of Valinor. They thus became obsessed with 'fading', the mode in which the changes of time (the law of the world under the sun) was perceived by them. They became sad, and their art (shall we say) antiquarian, and their efforts all really a kind of embalming -- even though they also retained the old motive of their kind, the adornment of earth, and the healing of its hurts...." (Ibid.)

Elsewhere Tolkien reiterated this situation by saying "the Elves are not wholly good or in the right. Not so much because they had flirted with Sauron; as because with or without his assistance they were 'embalmers'. They wanted to have their cake and eat it: to live in the mortal historical Middle-earth because they had become fond of it (and perhaps because they there had the advantages of a superior caste), and so tried to stop its change and history, stop its growth, keep it as a pleasuance, even largely a desert, where they could be 'artists' -- and they were overburdened with sadness and nostalgic regret...." (Letters, No. 154)

Sauron had also lingered in Middle-earth. Having seen the complete overthrow of Morgoth, he actually repented (according to Tolkien). Seeing that the powers of Light had indeed overcome the power of Darkness, he realized that maybe his earlier choices were not the right ones for him. But when Eonwë summoned him to Valinor to be judged by the Valar, Sauron refused, and he fled away to hide himself in exile. Either he feared he might suffer the same fate as Melkor (who was executed and forced to leave Ea, the universe, in a terribly weakened state) or that he might be imprisoned for some interminably long time.

The "reformed" Sauron at first wanted only to help heal the earth he had originally help to damage. Tolkien notes that "his motives and those of the Elves seemed to go partly together: the healing of the desolate lands." (Letters, No. 131) But Sauron's intentions changed, and in time he decided that he could best "heal" the lands by directing the Elves' efforts, and this ultimately evolved into a desire for domination over the Elves (and through them, Middle-earth).

And so Sauron "found [the Elves'] weak point in suggesting that, helping one another, they could make Western Middle-earth as beautiful as Valinor. It was really a veiled attack on the gods, an incitement to try and make a separate independent paradise. Gilgalad [sic] repulsed all such overtures, as also did Elrond. But at Eregion great work began -- and the Elves came their nearest to falling to 'magic' and machinery. With the aid of Sauron's lore they made Rings of Power...." (Ibid.)

In essence, Sauron was saying, "You don't have to fade. You don't have to sail over Sea. You can recreate Valinor here in Middle-earth and enjoy all the benefits it has to offer you." The offer was too tempting to some of the Elves, the Noldor of Eregion. Sauron (disguised as Annatar, or Aulendil, a Maia from Aulë's own people in Valinor) was offering the Eldar a chance to forestall the inevitable doom which had been decreed for them.

But what does Tolkien mean when he says "the Elves came their nearest to falling to 'magic' and machinery"?

Point 3: Art versus Magic

Tolkien tried to explain his use of "magic" on more than one occasion, and he didn't always succeed. "I am afraid I have been far too casual about 'magic' and especially the use of the word," he wrote in a draft for an extension to a letter which was never sent (Letters, No. 155). "Though Galadriel and others show by the criticism of the 'mortal' use of the word, that the thought about it is not altogether casual."

In his letter to Milton Waldman, Tolkien tried to explain Art and the Machine by speaking of "Fall, Mortality, and the Machine." The story was concerned with "Fall inevitably, and that motive occurs in several modes. With Mortality, especially as it affects art and the creative (I should say, the sub-creative) desire which seems to have no biological function, and to be apart from the satisfactions of plain ordinary biological life, with which, in our world, it is indeed usually at strife. This desire is at once wedded to a passionate love of the real primary world, and hence filled with the sense of mortality, and yet unsatisfied by it. It has various opportunities of 'Fall'. It may become possessive, clinging to the things made as 'its own', the sub-creator wishes to be the Lord and God of his private creation. He will rebel against the laws of the Creator -- especially against mortality. Both of these (alone or together) will lead to the desire for Power, for making the will more quickly effective -- and so to the Machine (or Magic). By the last I intend all use of external plans or devices (apparatus) instead of development of the inherent powers or talents -- of even the use of those talents with the corrupted motive of dominating: bulldozing the real world, or coercing other wills. The Machine is our more obvious modern form though more closely related to Magic than is usually recognized."

Tolkien goes on to concede again (or, in fact, prior to his concession above) that "I have not used 'magic' consistently, and indeed the Elven-queen Galadriel is obliged to remonstrate with the Hobbits on their confused use of the word both for the devices and operations of the Enemy, and for those of the Elves. I have not, because there is not a word for the latter (since all human stories have suffered the same confusion). But the Elves are there (in my tales) to demonstrate the difference. Their 'magic' is Art, delivered from many of its human limtations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence). And its object is Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and tyrannous re-forming of Creation. The 'Elves' are 'immortal', at least as far as this world goes: and hence are concerned rather with the griefs and burdens of deathlessness in time and change, than with death. The Enemy in successive forms is always 'naturally' concerned with sheer Domination, and so the Lord of magic of machines; but the problem: that this frightful evil can and does arise from an apparently good root the desire to benefit the world and others -- speedily and according to the benefactor's own plans -- is a recurrent motive."

Art therefore makes use of the natural world, and develops its natural tendencies, whereas the Machine imposes an external (unnatural) will upon the world, or other wills. Tolkien notes that the Elves of Eregion "came their nearest to falling to 'magic' and machinery." In creating the Rings of Power, they used their Art to create a Machine, but it was a Machine which they intended to be used only for preservation, not alteration. Nonetheless, the restraint of Time is a very serious action, contrary to the laws of nature. It is an act of rebellion "against the laws of the Creator."

The Rings of Power are thus a paradox: they provide for healing and restoration, but also for an unnatural preservation. The very motive behind the Rings, to delay or prevent the inevitable fading the Elves must suffer, is a rebellious motive. The devices are external to the environments they control, and the (Eregion) Elves did not at first realize the wrong they were doing. They paid a terrible price for their folly. Sauron destroyed their realm and took most of their Rings for himself, when he found that his plan to control them through the Rings would not work. It must be emphasized that most of the aspects of the Machine present in the Rings derive from Sauron, because the intention to use them to control other beings was strictly his own.

The combination of Art and Magic is at once both powerful and destructive for the Elves. They achieved a small measure of their ultimate goal, but things never really worked out as they intended.

Point 4: The Product of Art and Machine

When Sauron took the Seven and the Nine, Tolkien writes, he returned to Mordor (in fact, he was eventually driven back to Mordor by the Eldar of Lindon and their Numenorean allies, who at the time had no idea of what the war was all about). There Sauron "perverted" the Rings, and he gave them out to Dwarves and Men in a new scheme intended to extend Sauron's sway over those races much as he had intended to use them to control the Elves.

Tolkien doesn't say exactly how Sauron perverted the Rings, but his ultimate goal was to create powerful lords who would be his slaves. The Nine worked perfectly, and the nine men who accepted the Rings used them to become great lords, but eventually they lost their free will and their bodies. They became wraiths, forever invisible and unable to interact directly with the world except through some sort of procedure whereby they could take shape when given clothing. Was it natural clothing or magical? We don't know.

But as the Nine and the Seven were imbued with the abilities to render the wearers invisible or to allow them to see normally invisible things (presumably, wraiths, the spirits of other beings), it follows that Sauron used these abilities to grant powers of necromancy (the practice of communing with or controlling the dead) to the keepers of the Rings. Tolkien doesn't say that any Dwarf ever practiced necromancy. In fact, the Rings could not render the Dwarves invisible. It would seem therefore that the Rings offered nothing of value to the Dwarves in terms of dealing with the dead. Their spirits must not have lingered Middle-earth when they died.

The Elves, on the other hand, didn't always go immediately to Mandos in Aman when they died (or faded). They could refuse the summons, forsaking any hope of regaining a physical body. It thus makes sense that Sauron would induce the Elves of Eregion to include Necromantic powers in their Rings. In Aman, the Elves were accustomed to living alongside the Valar and Maiar, who might appear to them in a physical form or in "spirit" form (and the Valar and Maiar could control whether they were perceived by the Elves when in spirit form).

Elvish spirits might not be equivalent to the Valar and Maiar, but presumably the Elves hoped to talk to Mom and Dad on occasion, provided they had not gone swiftly to Aman upon the deaths of their bodies. Or it may be that the process of fading had already set in, or that the Elves were anticipating a quick transition to the Fading Years.

Who would be most likely to fade? An ancient Elf, presumably. And the more ancient the Elf, the more likely he or she was to have lived in Valinor (if among the Noldor) or to have lived at Cuivienen. He or she might also be the head of a family. So the Rings of Power were probably created for various Elven lords, princes and kings. The younger Elves, born in Middle-earth -- even in the Second Age -- would either have to wait their turns or else would have to hope the Rings could help them, too.

When Gandalf was discussing the confrontation with the Nazgul at the Ford of Bruinen with Frodo, Frodo asked if the shining figure he saw was Glorfindel. "Yes," Gandalf replied. "You saw him for a moment as he is on the other side: one of the mighty of the First-born. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes." A little earlier in the same conversation, Gandalf also noted that Rivendell was home to "the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power."

So, perhaps the Rings were not necessarily intended for Elves who had actually lived in Aman. Rather, the Rings may have been intended for their younger cousins or children, Elves who had been born in Middle-earth, who had not learned to live "at once in both worlds."

It must have been important to the Elves to possess this ability, and perhaps it meant they would be less likely to fade, since they would be able to move between both realms, so to speak. Not move physically, but via their will. They should have been able to perceive and interact with disembodied spirits (wraiths) in Aman, and so they wished to do so in Middle-earth.

The interaction must have included "making things of the invisible world visible". Could the restorative powers of the Rings actually bring an Elf back to life? Could the Rings have been used to give the Elves new bodies? Or could they simply have been used to make Elf-wraiths visible to all? In "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" Aragorn briefly imagined that "he had strayed into a dream, or that he had received the gift of the Elf-minstrels, who can make things of which they sing appear before the eyes of those that listen."

Something of this ability is also gleaned in the account of Finrod's duel of sorcery with Sauron in the fortress upon Tol Sirion. Finrod sang of his life in Valinor, but his song turned against him as he was forced to sing about the Kinslaying, and Sauron was able to capitalize on Finrod's guilt and regret (though Finrod himself had not participated in the Kinslaying). The ability to render visible images with the power of song implies the Elves, with a greater effort leaning toward the Machine, could pervert their Art (or at least misuse it) to render visible things from the invisible world. Sauron may only have needed to provide a little guidance to them.

Celebrimbor made the Three Rings by himself, and these Rings did not confer invisibility upon their wearers. Presumably they didn't make invisible things visible, either. The Three are thus more compliant with Elrond's description of what the Rings of Power did.

But that still doesn't answer the question of how the Rings worked. Why didn't all the Hobbits of the Shire (or at least Hobbiton) enjoy the benefits of the One Ring?

Point 5: Using the Machine through Art

The answer seems to be a matter of will. Tolkien wrote that the Three Rings effectively held back Time even while they were not actively used. Thus, during the Second Age, the Elves of Lindon enjoyed the benefit intended for the Elves of Eregion even though no one dared put on one of the Rings. Celebrimbor must therefore have given the Three a natural ability to just extend their power over the countryside. The effect's range may not have been measured in miles, however, but rather in people and objects. That is to say, if someone were wearing one of the Three, he (or she) might be able to decide that all Mallorn trees and all Elves would be preserved. The effects would be somewhat random if the Rings were not worn.

In this way, Gandalf could intentionally restrain the Time-delaying effects of Narya, the Ring of Fire which Cirdan gave to him. Or Gandalf could have desired only to let the Ring affect Elves. Cirdan said the Ring was idle when he gave it to Gandalf, so it would seem he was not actually wearing the Ring and directing its benefits. Gandalf, therefore, need not have used Narya to delay the fading process for anyone (including himself, though he was in no danger of fading).

Elrond and Galadriel may have taken a cue from Cirdan. Gil-galad originally possessed both Vilya and Narya, and he gave these Rings to Elrond and Cirdan near the end of the Second Age (perhaps having a bit of foresight about his final battle with Sauron). Celebrimbor seems to have given Galadriel her Ring.

Since Elrond and Cirdan advised Isildur to destroy the One Ring when Isildur cut it from Sauron's hand, it seems strange they should just return home and start using their Rings of Power right away. Maybe they take up the Rings when they learned that Isildur and the One Ring had been lost. But it may also be that the three Keepers left their Rings idle for at least a thousand years.

Then Gandalf showed up, Cirdan gave him Narya, and the genie was let out of the bottle. Elrond might have been using Vilya sooner, since he gahtered many High Elves (Noldor) in and around Rivendell. He might have had a lot of fading Elves on his hands. Tolkien doesn't say when the Elves figured out Elrond held one of the Rings, but they seem to have known it by the end of the Third Age. If word slowly spread that one wouldn't fade if one settled at or near Rivendell, that would be a sign that one of the Three was kept there.

Much the same could be true of Galadriel. She could have arrived in Lorien and offered to keep the Silvan Elves from fading. They must have known about the Rings of Power by then. They had lost one king, Amroth's father, in the war against Sauron at the end of the Second Age. And Amroth had helped Elrond more than once in the wars against Angmar. Haldir specifically referred to the "power of the Lady of the Galadrim" when Sam mentioned he felt as if he "was inside a song". Haldir seems to have known Galadriel was using a Ring. He would not have spoken of it openly, but both Elrond and Galadriel implied all the Elves were united in their belief that it would be better to lose the Three than to allow the One to continue to exist. Many Elves must therefore have had a pretty good idea of where Vilya and Nenya were hidden.

But if the Rings could be directed consciously, either to extend to certain limits or to work only on certain creatures and plants, then it makes sense that there was a physical limit to the power of the Three. At some point the Company of the Ring crossed into the realm of Galadriel's power, and that may or may not have coincided with the physical borders of Lorien (in fact, since the Elves withdrew to deep within the woods, it would seem the extent of Nenya's influence was considerably less than the boundaries of the forest).

Full Circle: The Rings, Time, and Wraiths

So why didn't the Shire benefit from the presence of the One Ring? Probably because only the Three acted on any geographical basis, and though the One possessed the powers of the other Rings, it may not have possessed the ranges of the Three Rings because Sauron was not present when Celebrimbor made them. Sauron himself had no real use for creating a Valinor in Middle-earth, so why use the One Ring to hold back decay around him? On the other hand, Smeagol, Bilbo, and Frodo all went without wearing the One Ring for long periods of time. So it, too, must have had a minimal geographical range that was, perhaps, more keyed to who possessed the Ring than anything else.

The Rings don't really hold back Time. They just slow the impact it has on a biological body. For something like a tree, which has no spirit (Ents and Huorns not considered), there is no real harm. An animal, though intelligent, might also benefit from the effect of the Rings because it didn't have a spirit. An Elf, whose spirit was intended to remain in Arda until the end of Time, would not feel stretched, as Bilbo put it.

The problem for "mortals" was that their spirits wanted to go elsewhere. After a certain length of time, mortal Men had to die. They had to give up their spirits. A Ring of Power obstructed this natural tendency. The body would keep on living, functioning the same as the day it came into possession of the Ring. But the spirit would be constantly striving to leave. Hence, the struggle between spirit and body (or spirit and Ring) must have produced the "stretched" feeling that Bilbo complained about. He wasn't physically stretched, but just torn between powerful forces.

Thus, when Sauron perverted the Seven and the Nine, he must have altered their natural tendency toward preservation to engage the opposite effect. The Nine keepers didn't become wraiths because they used the Rings, but because they possessed them. Using the Rings may have speeded the fading process, but probably any Elf who might have taken one of the altered Nine or Seven would have faded as well, and become just as enslaved as the nine Men eventually did.

People often ask if a man would fade were he in possession of one of the Three. I don't believe so. I think he would just continue, day after day, and eventually lose track of time. He would see the sun pass overhead, and perhaps note the phases of the moon (although the Company of the Ring didn't seem to when they were in Lorien). But for him time would eventually just become a trap. His body wouldn't grow old. It would just live and live and live, and life would become a constant torment to him, because he would always be in conflict with his own nature.

The world would sweep past such an unfortunate soul, who might ultimately feel nothing but a deep longing for release from the torment.Author: Michael Martinez
Published on: July 14, 2000

Michael Martinez is the author of Visualizing Middle-earth


TOPICS: Books/Literature; TV/Movies; The Hobbit Hole
KEYWORDS: effects; lordoftherings; ringsofpower; tolkien

1 posted on 12/05/2002 3:15:00 AM PST by JameRetief
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To: maquiladora; ecurbh; HairOfTheDog; 2Jedismom; Maigret; NewCenturions; 24Karet
Your Daily Tolkien Ping!

Coming from many sources, these articles cover many aspects of Tolkien and his literary works. If anyone would like for me to ping them directly when I post articles such as this let me know. Enjoy!

2 posted on 12/05/2002 3:15:34 AM PST by JameRetief
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To: All
The Daily Tolkien articles:

        ARTICLES 1-10

11) He shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water by Michael Martinez

12) All About Sam by Quickbeam

13) Count, count, weigh, divide by Michael Martinez

14) Real orcs don't do windows by Michael Martinez

15) Olog-hai Fidelity by Mister Underhill

16) Middle-earth Connections: Lore of the Rings by Michael Martinez

3 posted on 12/05/2002 3:17:50 AM PST by JameRetief
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To: 2Jedismom; Alkhin; Anitius Severinus Boethius; AUsome Joy; austinTparty; Bear_in_RoseBear; ...

Ring Ping!!

4 posted on 12/05/2002 5:10:48 AM PST by ecurbh
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To: JameRetief
Galadriel was of the last remaining Noldor, and under judgement by the Valar and for ages forbidden to return to Eldamar. (Had to do with her ethnic role with a rebellion, was it the fall of Gondolin?...I'll have to look it up to get details). With her encounter at the Mirror with Frodo, she hints at this conflict..."I have passed the test"...and knows at this point that she will diminish and return to Eldamar.
5 posted on 12/05/2002 5:26:45 AM PST by Mamzelle
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To: JameRetief
The "reformed" Sauron at first wanted only to help heal the earth he had originally help to damage. Tolkien notes that "his motives and those of the Elves seemed to go partly together: the healing of the desolate lands." (Letters, No. 131) But Sauron's intentions changed, and in time he decided that he could best "heal" the lands by directing the Elves' efforts, and this ultimately evolved into a desire for domination over the Elves (and through them, Middle-earth)

See, even JRRT knew that environmentalism and socialism go hand in hand.

6 posted on 12/05/2002 7:30:11 AM PST by Charlie OK
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To: JameRetief
So we know something about the Three, and of course quite a bit about the Nine. But is there any information about the Seven? Were the Dwarves simply smart enough to get rid of them down some deep, dark, dank chuck-hole so their descendants wouldn't be tempted?
7 posted on 12/05/2002 5:40:04 PM PST by Illbay
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To: Charlie OK
this frightful evil can and does arise from an apparently good root the desire to benefit the world and others -- speedily and according to the benefactor's own plans -- is a recurrent motive."

Along the same lines as your quote.

I believe it was Orwell who said that the most dangerous person in the world is an idealist with a machine gun. "Let me help you, or else!"

8 posted on 12/05/2002 7:54:26 PM PST by Restorer
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To: Illbay
Sauron recovered four Dwarf rings somehow, and the dragons ate the rest.
9 posted on 12/10/2002 12:18:48 PM PST by condi2008
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