Mudd Letters Opened To Public: Van Dam Jurors Continue to Mull and Ponder Westerfield's Fate! 8-15

Union Trib ^ | August 15, 2002 | Union Trib

[dread78645]

email me a beer...

On the way, and see ya in the morning.
good nite folks.

(g'nite john-boy, g'nite 'lisabeth, g'nite Susan, g'nite David, piss-off Damon)

[alexandria]

Two babies found safe after being taken in a stolen pick truck near Turlock, CA. Thanks

What was this about? I know people who live 20 min from there.

[alexandria]

AND YOU'LL RECALL FROM YESTERDAY THAT IT WAS MR. DUSEK'S THEORY THAT MR. WESTERFIELD APPARENTLY STEALTHILY, LIKE OUR STEALTH JETS, UNDER THE RADAR SCREEN, IN THE DARK OF NIGHT, WHEN IT WAS PITCH BLACK, SNUCK IN SOMEHOW INTO THE VAN DAM RESIDENCE.

Come on Jaded, wasn't this close enough? When Feldman said this in closing I almost spewed Pepsi all over the monitor.

[alexandria]

Dammit! Guess everyone went pumkin on me, I'm visiting family in Idaho so late time is about the ONLY time I can take over the phone line. Well, gnite.

[JudyB1938]

I couldn't sleep so was reading the rest of the last thread. I have comments in regards to comments there. Sorry this is so long, but I had to pull the comments over here so that people would know what I was referring to.

(1) Domestice: That is my theory exactly. And what some other people are also thinking, I might add.

* Couldn't agree more. On CTV they discuss the DA's & 'wins'..I rarely hear about seeking justice or the truth..its all about winning..to hell w/ truth it seems. For all we know some very high up people could have been 'swingers'...I have wondered if LE used 'diverson tactics'??? Get the attention OFF of certain circumstances, the drugs, the swingers,...& focus them elsewhere..voila... David Westerfield. 840

(2) Juzcuz: Your comment about her missing teeth being pulled really got to me. I could visualize that porno group filming as they tortured her for the amusement of their international members. But I have a couple of questions - wouldn't there have been damage to the gums if her teeth were pulled out? And where are those missing teeth?! If they fell out due to the decaying process, they would be with the body. They're not, so that takes me back to the torture scene. Remember the one guy who wanted audio so he could hear the child crying as she was being spanked? God, I hope Danielle wasn't in their clutches!

* Thank you that article clarified things.. The point is I guess even if he gets life in prison, it will still be a death sentence. I feel that there was a mistake in the article. It states that Danielle's "front teeth knocked out" it implies her two front teeth (central incisors) were knocked out. Not so... (central front -both were there) The teeth that were missing are the ones called lateral incisors the same teeth that are next to the front teeth. Also, what's really interesting about the teeth is that, if you look at her passport photo. It looks like she is missing those teeth. Actually, those were permanant adult teeth that were just showing there crown ( they were short because they were just comming down from the gum line on each side of the center front teeth. The forensic dentist- Sperber thought it was odd too, that those teeth were missing. He found only sockets. IMO--those teeth were PULLED OUT, not knocked out. Because if they were knocked out her front teeth would have been missing too. 887

* Danielle's teeth- I did not include the next set of teeth called the baby cuspids, she would not have lost them until about 12 years. She was missing each one of those as well. (cuspids show in the photo, they normally are next to the lateral incisors) To be accurate, all together she was missing 4 teeth. Sperber, located one- her right baby cuspid. The other three teeth remained missing. 913

* Teeth- I don't have any idea yet who or why would do such a thing. But I thought about those teeth for a while. Sperber said no damage to the gum- no damage to the bone around the teeth. Now, if she were hit in the mouth on each side of her face, there would have been damage to the gum and bone around a dislodged tooth. I don't believe she lost them while being smothered to death (with something soft???). If you think about it, her face would have had to be smashed sideways to dislodge those teeth on the side, causing alot of other broken bones in her face.. Any thoughts????? 928

(3) I think the porno group and the local chapter of the swinger group are tied in together. Domestice, you are rather substantiating my feeling on this by what you said.

* From the beginning I thought this whole thing was wierd..child missing, mom out til 2:30, then the rumors that were confirmed of the 'lifestyle'...how LE pinpointed DW so quickly when it seemed there could possibly be other suspects was beyond me. Sheesh...if word got around what these folks were into, they could have attracted many a pervert! Somebody could be a swinger, who just uses 'swinging' as a way to find out what couples have children...God only knows... too many unanswered questions. 853

[small_l_libertarian]

I think he almost did say "Stealth Ninja Dave" once. It was when he was talking about how he got up the stairs silently (I think). He asked the jury, "How did he do it? Stealth -..." Then he pulled up short. It sure sounded like he was about to say something else, though.

(I of course was sitting there yelling at the TV, "SAY IT, SAY IT!!!")

[bvw]

Excellent job!

Some random coincidences: missing foot, pulled teeth, poison oak, the date of the abduction, the bug-date's suggestion she was kept for some days.

[Bluebird Singing]

This is so grotesque, but maybe someone pulled the teeth after placing her at Dehesa - took them as a souvenir - dropping the one that was found in the throat.

[MizSterious]

After a person dies, the teeth loosen. Check the Blackbourne testimony for the sad and gorey details. My feeling is that the teeth were not knocked out or removed--they fell out. Also, if you get the chance, check the testimony of the volunteer searchers (particularly the one who brought his camera along). Chris something or other. Anyway, he testified that he recognized Danielle because of her teeth. So either he's lying through his own teeth, or the teeth were intact when he found her. What happened after that is anyone's guess.

[L,TOWM]

Self-ping.

Freepin' & workin' might mix...

[MizSterious]

From Chris Morgan:

Q: YOU THOUGHT SHE WAS DANIELLE?

A: I DID.

Q: WHY?

A: BECAUSE OF THE BLONDE HAIR. THE REASON, THE FACT THAT WE WERE SEARCHING FOR A GIRL WITH BLONDE HAIR. AND I ALSO NOTICED THE EARRING. HER TEETH STRUCTURE LOOKED A LOT LIKE THE PHOTO. SHE HAD A GAP IN HER TEETH AND RESEMBLED THE MISSING PERSONS PHOTO.

From Dr. Brian Blackbourne (trial)

1 A. I DETERMINED THERE WERE FOUR MISSING TEETH. THE

2 TWO INCISORS, THE LEFT, THE LATERAL INCISOR ON THE RIGHT AND

3 NEXT IS A CANINE. THOSE FOUR TEETH WERE ABSENT.

4 DOCTOR SPERBER LOCATED ONE OF THEM INSIDE THE BACK

5 OF THE MOUTH, I BELIEVE BETWEEN THE GUM AND THE TEETH. THAT WAS

6 THE LATERAL INCISOR ON THE LEFT. SO THERE'S STILL THREE MISSING

7 TEETH.


Blackbourne at the PH:

9 A. A permanent tooth. Two permanent incisors were

10 missing.

11 Q. And how -- in your opinion, how did that occur?

12 A. With extensive decomposition as we have in this

13 particular victim, many things decompose, including what's

14 known as the periodontal membrane.

15 The periodontal membrane is about the thickness

16 of a sheet of paper, and it is what anchors the tooth to

17 the bone. When decomposition occurs, it affects the

18 periodontal membrane, and in many cases, or a certain

19 number of cases, the anterior teeth, namely the incisors,

20 and sometimes the canine teeth, will become loose and just

21 come out as a result of -- it can be shaking by animals at

22 the scene or just if there's enough decomposition, merely

23 bringing the body back to the medical examiner's office can

24 often dislodge these teeth.

[Kerensky]

Q: Where are the pajama fibers?

A: "...They are with the blue blanket used to wrap Danielle, the missing comforter with blood all over it, the black boots with blood all over them, and my briefcase with a million dollars in it. If you see it, I want it back..."

[Bluebird Singing]

So if the teeth fell out, and only one of them was found, that means they were either left at Dehesa, or fell out somewhere else, or taken by somebody. I will look up the testimony of this searcher. I remember he said he had taken photos. That was an interesting statement that he made about recognizing her.

[Bluebird Singing]

Thank you!

[bvw]

Eruption of permanent teeth

Central incisor           7th Yr 
Lateral incisor           8th Yr 
Canine (Cuspid)           11-12th Yr 
First premolar (Bicuspid) 9th Yr 
Second premolar(Bicuspid) 10th Yr 
First molar               6th Yr 
Second molar              12-13th Yr 
Third molar               17-25th Yr 

[spectre]

Your logic is correct. It WAS testified that the bone and tissue holding the teeth in tact had degenerated and caused them to loosen.

But what other conclusion would Dusek want the Jury to believe, other than her teeth were "knocked" down her throat.

THIS is the same Dusek, who made-up the rape-scene, "BANG-BANG-BANG"-, against the MH headboard.

If that wasn't misstating the evidence, I don't know what was!

"Objection, Your honor, misstates the evidence", should have been entered.

sw

[MizSterious]

The jury pool is being thinned out a little more! The rest of us will have to remain in our lawn chairs on the edge of the pool sipping iced tea and umbrella drinks. Will today be the day?

---

Update on the informal verdict pool: What's your best guess for when the verdict will come in? (actual verdict prediction optional and not recorded)

There is no "prize," but the winner(s) get to be called "winners" and have the right to say "I told you so;" we're still negotiating about "neener neener neeners."

THE LIST SO FAR

MONDAY AUGUST 12TH

Small-l-libertarian
Countess - By 4 pm
FresnoDA - Afternoon

TUESDAY AUGUST 13TH

It's Me
Pyx - Mid-afternoon

WEDNESDAY AUGUST 14TH

Mommya - 2 hours after jurors come in
Mr.Stiv - Before lunch break
MizSterious
Greg Weston
Dave in Upland - Between noon & break
Spectre - 2 pm
Basscleff - Afternoon
I.Ben Hurt - Afternoon

THURSDAY AUGUST 15TH

Shezza - Before lunch
Mrs. Liberty - Noonish
Domestice - Afternoon
JRabbit - Afternoon
Henrietta - Afternoon
is_is - Afternoon
Lauratealeaf - 2 pm
Rheo - 3 pm
ThreeYearLurker - 3 pm
Crystalk - 3:33 pm
VRWC_minion

FRIDAY AUGUST 16TH

Pinz-N-Needlez - Morning, first thing
The Other Harry - 10 a.m.
Krodg - Morning
Calawah - Before noon
Brneyedgirl - Before noon
Demsux - Noonish
Cappsmadness - Post noon
Juzcuz - 2 pm
RnMomof7 - 2 pm deadlocked 1st time
Nycgal - 3 pm
MagnoliaMS - 4 pm
Jaded - Afternoon

MONDAY AUGUST 19TH

theirjustdue - 11 am
dread78645 - Midmorning
ItsOurTimeNow - 3 pm

TUESDAY AUGUST 20TH

Lucky - 11 am
Gigi - Morning
RnMomof7 - 2:30 pm deadlocked 2nd time
A Garrett

WEDNESDAY AUGUST 21ST

Kerensky - 2 pm
John Jamieson
Ucansee2

THURSDAY AUGUST 22ND

Fnord
Alexandria - Afternoon

FRIDAY AUGUST 23RD

bvw - Afternoon
Irgbar-man - 4:45 pm

MONDAY AUGUST 26TH

(None)

TUESDAY AUGUST 27TH

(None)

WEDNESDAY AUGUST 28TH

L,Towm
SOMETIME IN 2004

Bulldog108

(Note: All times PDT; if this thread gets real long, you might want to send your choices via freepmail or post them on the Refugee site--often I quit reading them when they're very, very long.)

[VRWC_minion]

Bookmark and

today was my estimate of the minimum time for a verdict. I based it on the length of time it took for the closing arguments and assumed that deliberations would take at least that long. If they are done and go for innocent or hung jury they will return today. If I were them and we were going for guilty I would wait till tomorrow.

[bvw]

From the pictures I've seen of Danielle it semed to layperson me that she may have had peg teeth. If so that could be sign of:

Late Congenital Syphilis - greater than two years of age

An older child may have stigmata such as interstitial keratitis, nerve deafness, anterior bowing of shins, mulberry molars, Hutchinson’s peg teeth, saddle nose, rhagades, or Clutton’s

according to GUIDELINES FOR THE INVESTIGATION AND TREATMENT OF INFANTS AT RISK OF CONGENITAL SYPHILIS, from the Australian CDC.

Again as I layperson, I don't know -- but would such a condition make her teeth more likely to fall out?

[Kerensky]

Any ideas on what the defense motion will be about?