Posted on 07/26/2002 11:29:06 AM PDT by HairOfTheDog
Welcome to The Green Dragon Inn
This is a chapter discussion of The Two Towers, volume two of the Lord of the Rings. It is a continuation of our discussion of Lord of the Rings that started with Fellowship of the Ring and finished a few weeks back. FoTR discussion thread.
We will cover one section of the book per week. Sometimes short, related chapters may be combined, and the process may evolve as we go to keep everybody happy! If you are joining late, jump right in, but please stick to the chapter currently being discussed. We should be a bit careful with topic and spoilers (especially if we are joined by some reading for the first time) but feel free to draw lines related to other events in the story. If you do misbehave too much you will be sent to Took's Corner. As always, if you want to chit-chat or share other news… I would probably be best to post that in The Hobbit Hole thread.
It is OK this time to share images from the Two Towers (that illustrate the current chapter of course!) They are fun snapshots that show our story coming to life. Use your head, we don't want to slow down the thread too much, but most of us love a few pics in the thread.
Every week I will ping you to the new chapter or section …. Let me know if you would like to be on - or off - this list. I will serve as the Thain of the list.
So lets read, listen and become inspired by the many aspects of The Lord of the Rings that touch us deeply and reconnect us to the values we aspire to. Many great discussions have already been had, and I hope that this thread will produce even more. Many FReepers have wonderful things to say about LoTR, whether the fantasy reconnects them with their faith, with their relationships with friends and family, or simply illustrates the splendor of great acts of heroism and sacrifice in the constant battle of virtue versus corruption.
Besides, we Tolkien fans need something to keep us busy while we wait for the film to come out December 19. This thread will adjust the schedule as necessary to be finished before the film comes out!
I also particularly like that... It is like Galadriel's movie line "Even the smallest person can change the course of the future."
I wonder how lost he could be after riding Shadowfax from Lothlorien, only stopping at Fanghorn to pick up the lost trio, on his mission to Edoras?
Maybe the riddles are Tolkiens hope teasers for the reader?
Both are blind:
Gandalf says to 3 of Sauron: "That we should wish to cast him (Sauron) down and have NO one in his place is not a thought that occurs to him (Sauron) That we should try to destroy the Ring itself has not yet entered into his darkest dream.......Wise Fool!
Gandalf says to 3 of Saruman's Treachery: ..Saruman also ahd a mind to captre the Ring.....
...the Dark Lord knows that two hobbits were taken in the Emyn Muil and borne away towards Isengard...... He (Sauron) now has Isengard to fear as well as Minas Tirith.
The FEAR that both of these wizards feel is ultimately what blinds them, in their fear they both focus outward and to 'strength': thus Saruman misses the advance of the Ents, and Saron -looking out- doesn't see a couple little men trying to 'enter' Mordor.
Interesting that their own striving for power prevents them from seeing anything that NOT motivated by power, and in being so focused, they overlook the very things that will destroy them.
Love it!
Sure!
'Yes, together we will follow you,' said Legolas. 'But first, it would ease my heart, Gandalf, to hear what befell you in Moria. Will you not tell us? Can you not stay even to tell your friends how you were delivered?''I have stayed already too long,' answered Gandalf. 'Time is short. But if there were a year to spend, I would not tell you all.'
'Then tell us what you will, and time allows!' said Gimli. 'Come, Gandalf, tell us how you fared with the Balrog!'
'Name him not!' said Gandalf, and for a moment it seemed that a cloud of pain passed over his face, and he sat silent, looking old as death. 'Long time I fell,' he said at last, slowly, as if thinking back with difficulty. 'Long I fell, and he fell with me. His fire was about me. I was burned. Then we plunged into the deep water and all was dark. Cold it was as the tide of death: almost it froze my heart.'
'Deep is the abyss that is spanned by Durin's Bridge, and none has measured it,' said Gimli.
'Yet it has a bottom, beyond light and knowledge,' said Gandalf. 'Thither I came at last, to the uttermost foundations of stone. He was with me still. His fire was quenched, but now he was a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake.
'We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin's folk, Gimli son of Glóin. Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day. In that despair my enemy was my only hope, and I pursued him, clutching at his heel. Thus he brought me back at last to the secret ways of Khazad-dûm: too well he knew them all. Ever up now we went, until we came to the Endless Stair.'
'Long has that been lost,' said Gimli. 'Many have said that it was never made save in legend, but others say that it was destroyed.'
'It was made, and it had not been destroyed,' said Gandalf. 'From the lowest dungeon to the highest peak it climbed. ascending in unbroken spiral in many thousand steps, until it issued at last in Durin's Tower carved in the living rock of Zirak-zigil, the pinnacle of the Silvertine.
'There upon Celebdil was a lonely window in the snow, and before it lay a narrow space, a dizzy eyrie above the mists of the world. The sun shone fiercely there, but all below was wrapped in cloud. Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame. There was none to see, or perhaps in after ages songs would still be sung of the Battle of the Peak.' Suddenly Gandalf laughed. 'But what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire. Is not that enough? A great smoke rose about us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain. I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin. Then darkness took me; and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell.
'Naked I was sent back – for a brief time, until my task is done. And naked I lay upon the mountain-top. The tower behind was crumbled into dust, the window gone; the ruined stair was choked with burned and broken stone. I was alone, forgotten, without escape upon the hard horn of the world. There I lay staring upward, while the stars wheeled over, and each day was as long as a life-age of the earth. Faint to my ears came the gathered rumour of all lands: the springing and the dying, the song and the weeping, and the slow everlasting groan of overburdened stone. And so at the last Gwaihir the Windlord found me again, and he took me up and bore me away.
'Ever am I fated to be your burden, friend at need,' I said.
'A burden you have been,' he answered, 'but not so now. Light as a swan's feather in my claw you are. The Sun shines through you. Indeed I do not think you need me any more: were I to let you fall you would float upon the wind.'
'Do not let me fall!' I gasped, for I felt life in me again. 'Bear me to Lothlórien!'
'That indeed is the command of the Lady Galadriel who sent me to look for you,' he answered.
'Thus it was that I came to Caras Galadhon and found you but lately gone. I tarried there in the ageless time of that land where days bring healing not decay. Healing I found, and I was clothed in white. Counsel I gave and counsel took. Thence by strange roads I came, and messages I bring to some of you...
LB - I forgot about sending you this chapter.... sorry... shall we get it together now or wait till the next?
The paragraph just prior to your selection had a situation that stood out for me: Aragorn speaking to White Rider: ="...you are the captain and banner.. . .The Dark Lord has Nine. But we have One,.....the White Rider. He has passed through the fire and the abyss, and they shall fear him."
When I read this I was struck by Aragorn- (carrying Narsil - reforged as Anduril) talking to Gandalf - 'reforged' as White Rider.
And, Gandalf is the bearer of the Ring of Fire- to inflame or motivate hearts.
Also, Gandalf "passed through the fire" (of Balrog). Have ya'll done any study on the use of Fire throughout LotR?
Passing through the fire, and sinking into the Abyss- sure has a counterpart to Christ 'going down into Hell and defeating death' , being completely changed and returning as King-
This part gets really muddled for me, I can go round and round with these few lines.
Help! Looking for wisdom out there?
Have ya'll done any study on the use of Fire throughout LotR?
Aaagh!!! We have to do fire too? :)
Okay. I'm trying to remember all the uses of fire here. Outside of the homey use of campfires and hearthfires there's the part where Gandalf puts the Ring in the fire to bring out the writing, the fire at Mount Doom, the burning Eye, Hobbiton on fire in Frodo's Mirror vision (or am I remembering the movie too much?) Those are the fire images that I've noticed.
"He has passed through the fire and the abyss, and they shall fear him."That sounds like Gandalf being tried and...I want to say "purified" by fire but I don't know if that's quite the right word. "Tempered" maybe? But anyway, I think that fire and abyss thing is a great trial that Gandalf goes through and emerges stronger and more able to take on the bad guys than before.
I agree that the descent and and subsequent ascent are parallel, though I keep in mind that JRRT stated more than once that LOTR was not a paraphrase of the bible. I think that Gandalf's experience may have been purposely similar, though I don't at all suppose that Gandalf was any sort of Christ figure. I believe JRRT thought of him as more of an "angel," though I don't remember exactly where I read that.
It' discussed at some length in the "Letters" if I remember right.
From Silmarillion:
Even as the first shadows were felt in Mirkwood there appeared in the west of Middle-earth the Istari, whom Men called the Wizards. None knew at that time whence they were, save C§ßrdan of the Havens, and only to Elrond and to Galadriel did he reveal that they came over the Sea. But afterwards it was said among the Elves that they were messengers sent by the Lords of the West to contest the power of Sauron, if he should arise again, and to move Elves and Men and all living things of good will to valiant deeds. In the likeness of Men they appeared, old but vigorous, and they changed little with the years, and aged but slowly, though great cares lay on them; great wisdom they had, and many powers of mind and hand. Long they journeyed far and wide among Elves and Men, and held converse also with beasts and with birds; and the peoples of Middle-earth gave to them many names, for their true names they did not reveal.
I am going to copy part of our discussion from FoTR that fits here... discussing Gandalf's ring, because I think it also fits, and I couldn't say it better:
I did manage to read the section on The Rings of Power from the Silmarillion last night, and one thing jumped out at me in particular. Gandalf's ring was the Ring of Fire. The name conjured up for me the image of his battle with the balrog in Moria, but that is not at all the emphasis presented in "The Rings of Power." Instead, the Ring of Fire which Gandalf possesses increases his ability to enflame the hearts of others to heroic deeds. Hence his ability to spark in the hobbits their drive and commitment to performing great acts of heroism beyond any that they themselves would beleive possible. I think about how each time one of them steps out, it is Gandalf who is present to spur them on--Frodo and Sam at the beginning, Merry and Pippin later on in the story. All who accept Gandalf's leadership arrive at greater achievements than they believe are even possible, all because of his encouragement and influence.
Just knowing that bit about the Ring of Fire really opened my eyes to Gandalf's role, particularly in how it worked itself out in his relationships with all the characters in the story.
"Take now this Ring," he [C¨ªrdan] said; "for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill."-Penny1
From that I read that Gandalf's role is to inspire the hearts of people to valor, his power is subtle, a mentoring that leads the hero to his own decision.
I like that better than "type of Christ". When I first began reading LotR, I felt there was something- Christ related with Gandalf, but not exactly a representation of Him, as I went on, and he would show up to encourage, inform or suggest after a course of action has begun or was getting bogged down, that kind of made me think he was more like the fundtion the Holy Spirit in my life.
It did occur to me that it might be similar to one of the Archangels- whereas only Lucifer fell to become Satan taking some angels with him- comp: Sauron/Sarumon's rebellion and the Orcs (corrupted Elves)
The other two Michael and Gabriel remained loyal.
I think you are right, that this is NOT an allegory, but it is interesting that he uses so many Christian tenets, and illustrations-
RE: Fire, Tolkien sure does use it in a lot of ways. Don't forget the the fire of the forge, both dwarf and elven- to strengthen and sharpen- The Balrog- to burn out impurities? remeber that Gwaihir said that Gandalf was light as a feather- and that the sun could see through him after his experience with the Balrog's fire. "I was burnt."
Sorry, I need a nap, getting rambling here.
As of this post we have had a week with Chapter 5 (The White Rider) and are about to start Chapter 6 (The King of the Golden Hall) This thread is layed out in chapters, and we do about a chapter per week.
If you look back to The White Rider (Post #466), you will see the point where the last chapter began, and at the bottom of every chapter post there is an index so you can flip back through the previous chapters.
When I got your message, I was preparing a bit of a closer for chapter 5, so that everyone will remember where it left off and we can get our bearings. I hope you don't mind if I stick that in here in my ping to you!
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...'I shall not walk. Time presses,' said Gandalf. Then lifting up his head he gave a long whistle. So clear and piercing was the note that the others stood amazed to hear such a sound come from those old bearded lips. Three times he whistled; and then faint and far off it seemed to them that they heard the whinny of a horse borne up from the plains upon the eastern wind. They waited wondering. Before long there came the sound of hoofs, at first hardly more than a tremor of the ground perceptible only to Aragorn as he lay upon the grass, then growing steadily louder and clearer to a quick beat.'There is more than one horse coming,' said Aragorn.
'Certainly,' said Gandalf. 'We are too great a burden for one.'
'There are three,' said Legolas, gazing out over the plain. 'See how they run! There is Hasufel, and there is my friend Arod beside him! But there is another that strides ahead: a very great horse. I have not seen his like before.'
'Nor will you again,' said Gandalf. 'That is Shadowfax. He is the chief of the Mearas, lords of horses, and not even Théoden, King of Rohan, has ever looked on a better. Does he not shine like silver, and run as smoothly as a swift stream? He has come for me: the horse of the White Rider. We are going to battle together.'....
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...Gandalf spoke now to Shadowfax, and the horse set off at a good pace, yet not beyond the measure of the others. After a little while he turned suddenly, and choosing a place where the banks were lower, he waded the river, and then led them away due south into a flat land, treeless and wide. The wind went like grey waves through the endless miles of grass. There was no sign of road or track, but Shadowfax did not stay or falter.
'He is steering a straight course now for the halls of Théoden under the slopes of the White Mountains,' said Gandalf. 'It will be quicker so. The ground is firmer in the Eastemnet, where the chief northward track lies, across the river, but Shadowfax knows the way through every fen and hollow.'
For many hours they rode on through the meads and riverlands. Often the grass was so high that it reached above the knees of the riders, and their steeds seemed to be swimming in a grey-green sea. They came upon many hidden pools, and broad acres of sedge waving above wet and treacherous bogs; but Shadowfax found the way, and the other horses followed in his swath. Slowly the sun fell from the sky down into the West. Looking out over the great plain, far away the riders saw it for a moment like a red fire sinking into the grass. Low upon the edge of sight shoulders of the mountains glinted red upon either side. A smoke seemed to rise up and darken the sun's disc to the hue of blood, as if it had kindled the grass as it passed down under the rim of earth.
'There lies the Gap of Rohan,' said Gandalf. 'It is now almost due west of us. That way lies Isengard.'
'I see a great smoke,' said Legolas. 'What may that be?'
'Battle and war!' said Gandalf. 'Ride on!'
So there ends our Chapter 5 all! Look for the new chapter post shortly! - I am working on it now!
Hullo friends! … Welcome to the Green Dragon!
The Two Towers
Topic for the week:
Chapter 6: The King of the Golden Hall
…A bitter chill came into the air. Slowly in the East the dark faded to a cold grey. Red shafts of light leapt above the black walls of the Emyn Muil far away upon their left. Dawn came clear and bright; a wind swept across their path, rushing through the bent grasses. Suddenly Shadowfax stood still and neighed. Gandalf pointed ahead.'Look!' he cried, and they lifted their tired eyes. Before them stood the mountains of the South: white-tipped and streaked with black. The grass-lands rolled against the hills that clustered at their feet, and flowed up into many valleys still dim and dark, untouched by the light of dawn, winding their way into the heart of the great mountains. Immediately before the travellers the widest of these glens opened like a long gulf among the hills. Far inward they glimpsed a tumbled mountain-mass with one tall peak; at the mouth of the vale there stood like sentinel a lonely height. About its feet there flowed, as a thread of silver, the stream that issued from the dale; upon its brow they caught, still far away, a glint in the rising sun, a glimmer of gold. 'Speak, Legolas!' said Gandalf. 'Tell us what you see there before us!'
Legolas gazed ahead, shading his eyes from the level shafts of the new-risen sun. 'I see a white stream that comes down from the snows,' he said. 'Where it issues from the shadow of the vale a green hill rises upon the east. A dike and mighty wall and thorny fence encircle it. Within there rise the roofs of houses; and in the midst, set upon a green terrace, there stands aloft a great hall of Men. And it seems to my eyes that it is thatched with gold. The light of it shines far over the land. Golden, too, are the posts of its doors. There men in bright mail stand; but all else within the courts are yet asleep.'
'Edoras those courts are called,' said Gandalf, 'and Meduseld is that golden hall. There dwells Théoden son of Thengel, King of the Mark of Rohan. We are come with the rising of the day. Now the road lies plain to see before us. But we must ride more warily; for war is abroad, and the Rohirrim, the Horse-lords, do not sleep, even if it seem so from afar. Draw no weapon, speak no haughty word, I counsel you all, until we are come before Théoden's seat.'…
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…At the foot of the walled hill the way ran under the shadow of many mounds, high and green. Upon their western sides the grass was white as with a drifted snow: small flowers sprang there like countless stars amid the turf.
'Look!' said Gandalf. 'How fair are the bright eyes in the grass! Evermind they are called, simbelmynë in this land of Men, for they blossom in all the seasons of the year, and grow where dead men rest. Behold! we are come to the great barrows where the sires of Théoden sleep.' 'Seven mounds upon the left, and nine upon the right,' said Aragorn. 'Many long lives of men it is since the golden hall was built.'…
'Five hundred times have the red leaves fallen in Mirkwood in my home since then,' said Legolas, 'and but a little while does that seem to us.'
'But to the Riders of the Mark it seems so long ago,' said Aragorn, 'that the raising of this house is but a memory of song, and the years before are lost in the mist of time. Now they call this land their home, their own, and their speech is sundered from their northern kin.' Then he began to chant softly in a slow tongue unknown to the Elf and Dwarf; yet they listened, for there was a strong music in it.
'That, I guess, is the language of the Rohirrim,' said Legolas; 'for it is like to this land itself; rich and rolling in part, and else hard and stern as the mountains. But I cannot guess what it means, save that it is laden with the sadness of Mortal Men.'
'It runs thus in the Common Speech,' said Aragorn, 'as near as I can make it.
Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing?
Where is the helm and the hauberk, and the bright hair flowing?
Where is the hand on the harpstring, and the red fire glowing?
Where is the spring and the harvest and the tall corn growing?
They have passed like rain on the mountain, like a wind in the meadow;
The days have gone down in the West behind the hills into shadow.
Who shall gather the smoke of the dead wood burning,
Or behold the flowing years from the Sea returning?Thus spoke a forgotten poet long ago in Rohan, recalling how tall and fair was Eorl the Young, who rode down out of the North; and there were wings upon the feet of his steed, Felaróf, father of horses. So men still sing in the evening.'
With these words the travellers passed the silent mounds. Following the winding way up the green shoulders of the hills, they came at last to the wide wind-swept walls and the gates of Edoras…
OK then! Hullo – Good Morning! We have left Merry and Pippin behind in the forest, and they are causing their own trouble now which we will hear of later. Instead, we go to Rohan – Today we meet some new people and visit new places!
Here is our Map of where we are So we don't get lost!
Index to thread:
Chapter 1 and 2: The Departure of Boromir and The Riders of Rohan (Post #2)
Chapter 2 mid week bumper: The Riders of Rohan (Post #122)
Chapter 3: The Uruk-Hai (Post #195)
Chapter 3 Monday bumper: The Uruk-Hai continued (Post #293)
Chapter 4: Treebeard (Post #352)
Chapter 5: The White Rider (Post #466)
I think that's what fascinates me the most about Tolkien..and the character of Peregrin Took. He seems to be the most random aspect of the Nine.
I wrote a fan fic trying to get to the heart of that...it is posted on Nindaiwe...called 'The Falling of Small Stones'
best, Alkhin
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