Posted on 07/26/2002 11:29:06 AM PDT by HairOfTheDog
Welcome to The Green Dragon Inn
This is a chapter discussion of The Two Towers, volume two of the Lord of the Rings. It is a continuation of our discussion of Lord of the Rings that started with Fellowship of the Ring and finished a few weeks back. FoTR discussion thread.
We will cover one section of the book per week. Sometimes short, related chapters may be combined, and the process may evolve as we go to keep everybody happy! If you are joining late, jump right in, but please stick to the chapter currently being discussed. We should be a bit careful with topic and spoilers (especially if we are joined by some reading for the first time) but feel free to draw lines related to other events in the story. If you do misbehave too much you will be sent to Took's Corner. As always, if you want to chit-chat or share other news… I would probably be best to post that in The Hobbit Hole thread.
It is OK this time to share images from the Two Towers (that illustrate the current chapter of course!) They are fun snapshots that show our story coming to life. Use your head, we don't want to slow down the thread too much, but most of us love a few pics in the thread.
Every week I will ping you to the new chapter or section …. Let me know if you would like to be on - or off - this list. I will serve as the Thain of the list.
So lets read, listen and become inspired by the many aspects of The Lord of the Rings that touch us deeply and reconnect us to the values we aspire to. Many great discussions have already been had, and I hope that this thread will produce even more. Many FReepers have wonderful things to say about LoTR, whether the fantasy reconnects them with their faith, with their relationships with friends and family, or simply illustrates the splendor of great acts of heroism and sacrifice in the constant battle of virtue versus corruption.
Besides, we Tolkien fans need something to keep us busy while we wait for the film to come out December 19. This thread will adjust the schedule as necessary to be finished before the film comes out!
I don't remember if the book actually explains what Gandalf was doing in Fangorn? But you'd think that he must have been looking for his friends, even if he did seem "out of it."
Are you talking about the earlier figure they spotted in chapter 2?
I have gone back in forth on whether that was Gandalf or Saruman in the past but I am now taking the side that it was Saruman... because of this quote. I don't remember this standing out so clearly before:
'Wait a minute!' cried Gimli. 'There is another thing that I should like to know first. Was it you, Gandalf, or Saruman that we saw last night?''You certainly did not see me,' answered Gandalf, 'therefore I must guess that you saw Saruman. Evidently we look so much alike that your desire to make an incurable dent in my hat must be excused.'
'Good, good!' said Gimli. 'I am glad that it was not you.'
Gandalf laughed again. 'Yes, my good Dwarf,' he said, 'it is a comfort not to be mistaken at all points. Do I not know it only too well! But, of course, I never blamed you for your welcome of me. How could I do so, who have so often counselled my friends to suspect even their own hands when dealing with the Enemy. Bless you, Gimli, son of Glóin! Maybe you will see us both together one day and judge between us!'
'The victor would emerge stronger than either, and free from doubt,' said Gandalf. 'But Isengard cannot fight Mordor, unless Saruman first obtains the Ring. That he will never do now. He does not yet know his peril. There is much that he does not know. He was so eager to lay his hands on his prey that he could not wait at home, and he came forth to meet and to spy on his messengers. But he came too late, for once, and the battle was over and beyond his help before he reached these parts. He did not remain here long. I look into his mind and I see his doubt. He has no woodcraft. He believes that the horsemen slew and burned all upon the field of battle; but he does not know whether the Orcs were bringing any prisoners or not. And he does not know of the quarrel between his servants and the Orcs of Mordor; nor does he know of the Winged Messenger.''The Winged Messenger!' cried Legolas. 'I shot at him with the bow of Galadriel above Sarn Gebir, and I felled him from the sky. He filled us all with fear. What new terror is this?'
'One that you cannot slay with arrows,' said Gandalf. 'You only slew his steed. It was a good deed; but the Rider was soon horsed again. For he was a Nazgûl, one of the Nine, who ride now upon winged steeds. Soon their terror will overshadow the last armies of our friends, cutting off the sun. But they have not yet been allowed to cross the River, and Saruman does not know of this new shape in which the Ringwraiths have been clad. His thought is ever on the Ring. Was it present in the battle? Was it found? What if Théoden, Lord of the Mark, should come by it and learn of its power? That is the danger that he sees, and he has fled back to Isengard to double and treble his assault on Rohan. And all the time there is another danger, close at hand, which he does not see, busy with his fiery thoughts. He has forgotten Treebeard.'
Altzheimers?
Onward! Now they are discussing the new form the Nazgul have taken, Gandalf informs them that SAruman doesn't know of this development- and he also tells the company "The Ring now has passed beyond my help, or the help of any of teh Company that set out from Rivendell. Very nearly it was revealed to the Enemy, but it escaped. I had some part in that: for I sat in a high place, and I strove with the Dark Tower; and the Shadow passed."
What is he saying- when did his struggle with the Dark Tower take place?
One of the more important things that I got out of this chapter- as it relates to Sauron and Saruman is this:Both were so absorded with finding The Ring- that it was inconceivable to Sauron that destroying it was an option, so he was focusing all his attention outside of Mordor. Saruman of course was looking for Hobbits to get it, and focusing so hard on locating them, that he was missing the Ents marching on him. I love this! Gandalf explains: "Yet a treacherous weapon is ever a danger to the hand. Saruman also had a mind to captre the Ring, for himself, or al least to snare some hobbits for his evil purposes. So between them (Sauron & Saruman) our eneimies have contrived only to bring Merry and Pippin with marvellous speed, and inthe nick of time, to Fangorn, where otherwise they would never have come at all!"
And deliciously roused the Ents- to their own destruction, because surely the Ents defeating Orthanc it knocked a hole in Saruman's ability to defeat the Rohrimmim and certainly did nothing to assist the troups in Mordor.
These two so focused on gaining the power of the Ring, they neither could conceive that there was not someone looking to 'use' the power, but destroy it.
Neat! Sorry I got so windy.
Very nearly it was revealed to the Enemy, but it escaped. I had some part in that: for I sat in a high place, and I strove with the Dark Tower; and the Shadow passed."
What is he saying- when did his struggle with the Dark Tower take place?
I don't recall at the moment which close call this was, but it seems like we figured it out once from the timeline Ecurbh has... I have lost the link to it, so perhaps if ecurbh is around he will post the time period.
Just now I flipped forward and tried to find it, but other than a few overhead Nazgul, I haven't seen really close calls where I think the eye was on them and then passed over or was diverted. But it happens somewhere early after the breaking, but before the meeting with Faramir, which happens after this scene in the book.
Hmmm, I was wracking my brain, and came up with the adventure with Shelob, and of course being taken into tower, and then there was the escape?????
But what you are saying is that it would have to have been a contest when "the Eye" was involved?
Have to read ahead, or try to catch it later on.
There was another paragraph that I was quite taken with-
Boromir again!
Gandalf speaking about Boromir: "It was a sore trial for such a man: a warrior, and a lord of men. Galadriel told me that he was in peril.
What would Galadriel have said?
...But he escaped in the end
He died, so she must have been saying he escaped the power of the Ring??
"I am glad. It was not in vain that the young hobbits came with us, if only for Boromir's sake.
Odd comment???
But that is not the only part they ahve to play.
Foreknowledge, wouldn't you say?
They were brought to Fangorn, and their coming was like the falling of small stones that starts an avalanche in the mountains. Even....:
I particularly like the small things that can bring down the great- don't you?
I think it was when Frodo put the Ring on when he was escaping from Boromir and he climbed to the top of Anon Hen (sp?). He sees the Eye looking for him and hears in his mind take off the Ring!. At least that's as nearly as I can recall. I don't have Fellowship with me at the moment.
And suddenly he felt the Eye. There was an eye in the Dark Tower that did not sleep. He knew that it had become aware of his gaze. A fierce eager will was there. It leaped towards him; almost like a finger he felt it, searching for him. Very soon it would nail him down, know just exactly where he was. Amon Lhaw it touched. It glanced upon Tol Brandir he threw himself from the seat, crouching, covering his head with his grey hood.
He heard himself crying out: Never, never! Or was it: Verily I come, I come to you? He could not tell. Then as a flash from some other point of power there came to his mind another thought: Take it off! Take it off! Fool, take it off! Take off the Ring!
The two powers strove in him. For a moment, perfectly balanced between their piercing points, he writhed, tormented. Suddenly he was aware of himself again. Frodo, neither the Voice nor the Eye: free to choose, and with one remaining instant in which to do so. He took the Ring off his finger. He was kneeling in clear sunlight before the high seat. A black shadow seemed to pass like an arm above him; it missed Amon Hen and groped out west, and faded.
Then all the sky was clean and blue and birds sang in every tree. Frodo rose to his feet. A great weariness was on him, but his will was firm and his heart lighter. He spoke aloud to himself. `I will do now what I must,' he said. 'This at least is plain: the evil of the Ring is already at work even in the Company, and the Ring must leave them before it does more harm. I will go alone. Some I cannot trust, and those I can trust are too dear to me: poor old Sam, and Merry and Pippin. Strider, too: his heart yearns for Minas Tirith, and he will be needed there, now Boromir has fallen into evil. I will go alone. At once.'
Going to do some Re-reading now. Must be getting really old, we've read that so recently.
Thanks musch.
I can see him saying it was Sauroman they must have seen while he is showing off with all the riddles. What I can't see is Sauroman walking from Isengard to Fanghorn and back. He would simply use the palantier. And nowhere in the whole story does he or Gandalf project their image or move about in any form but in the flesh.
Maybe Tolkien is trying to allude to that in his making Gandalf seem a little lost at that point.
...But he escaped in the end
"I am glad. It was not in vain that the young hobbits came with us, if only for Boromir's sake.
I think all three of those line refer to Boromir's struggle with evil, and that in the end he was given redemption.
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