[HairOfTheDog]

Right, but our job is to convince the rank and file, not the wacko fringe... so talking to them about power grabs and totalitarian regimes makes us look absolutely crazy to the person who just likes to look at the pretty river on her way to work.

We have to adjust our arguments to reflect the desired audience... the voters and citizens. That is what the left does. They talk to kids about greener places and show pictures of endangered species. There's is a prettier solution than ranting about UN land grab oppression. We are killing ourselves with the voters ad pushing them more and more into the hands of those with the better sales pitch.

We aren't talking to ELF. We aren't going to convince them first. We are talking to people who see strip malls where they used to see trees, and stories of wild salmon and fuzzy critters disappearing. They don't go to the hatcheries where record levels of salmon are returning every year but not mentioned because hatchery fish don't count. They don't know about it. We need to help them. We need to look like we want to live in a pretty world too, we just have a different way of getting there.

[Corin Stormhands]

We are talking to people who see strip malls where they used to see trees, and stories of wild salmon and fuzzy critters disappearing.

The greenies are none too happy with my goldfish bowl...

[RosieCotton]

OK, this doesn't have much to do with what you've already said, but while we're in rant mode...

One thing conservatives seem to forget is that basically everyone is out there trying to do what they think is good and right. In order to change behavior, you have to change what people SEE as good and right, and if you start out by calling everything they believe in evil and wrong, more than likely they won't want to even listen to you any more.

Rational arguments work a lot better than childish "you're wrong and I'm right and you're stupid and I'm smart!" ravings.

[Sam Cree]

"We need to look like we want to live in a pretty world too, we just have a different way of getting there"

And our way is going to be a lot more effective, since a free people will not only have more motivation to preserve and take pride in natural beauty, they'll be able to afford it.

But I guess that's your point :-)