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The New Hobbit Hole

Posted on 03/14/2002 5:07:26 AM PST by HairOfTheDog

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To: Sam Cree
I did read somewhere, I think, that the elves were not even supposed to be on Middle Earth, but had gone there so that they could be "artists," or be of a higher caste, and have powers. I definitely read that Galadriel was there through participation in some kind of rebellion, but was forgiven (because she resisted the temptation of the ring and its power) and was allowed to return to the west. So, just as most of the Numenoreans were destroyed for attempting to go to the land of immortality, the elves were not going to be allowed to remain on Middle Earth.

Not exactly right. The Eldar, or the highest "race," of the Elves traveled, following the summons of the Valar, from the East of Middle Earth to its West, where most of them took ship (or floating island) to Aman, where the Valar dwelt.

Many millenia later, most of the Noldor, one of the Eldarin tribes, rebel against the Valar and return to Middle Eart to get revenge on Melkor/Morgoth. (Not a particularly good idea, as it turns out.)

Some of the Noldor also wanted to be rulers and not under the tutelage of the Valar anymore. One of these was Galadriel. Such desire was not necessarily evil in and of itself, althought the means used to achieve it certainly was.

Tolkien's conception of Galadriel changed throughout his life, so depending on which period of his writings you access, she is either denied permission to return to the West at the end of the First Age, or she refuses to return. In either case, her long rebellion against authority ends when she refuses to take The Ring.

BTW, not all the Elves went to Aman. Most of the Elves Legolas' family (and Galadriel) rules over are of this category. They are not nearly as high in moral and mental stature as the Eldar. Seemingly they don't differ tremdnsouly from Men, except in their longevity.

Similarly, the Numenoreans at their height were almost equal to the Eldar in power and status, except again for their lifespan. To me this indicates that Tolkien saw little difference in the raw potential of Men and Elves. The Elves mostly developed greater power because they had more time to do so in.

Even the Elves that had never been to Aman are fated to "fade" as the Third Age progresses. Tolkien implies that this is due mostly to the wearing effect the fire of their immortal spirit has on their bodies, which are made of the perishable stuff of Middle Earth. Only in The West can the Elves continue to live without this fading.

1,401 posted on 03/30/2002 11:06:14 AM PST by Restorer
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To: Restorer
Sorry. First sentence of last paragraph of 1401 should have referenced Fourth Age, not Third Age.

Although Elrond and Galadriel both imply that this "fading" is already underway, with a strong implication that it has been stopped or slowed during the Third Age by the power of the Three Rings (which the Elves can use as long as Sauron doesn't hold the One). With the destruction of the One Ring, the Three also lose their powers, so the fading will accelerate greatly.

1,402 posted on 03/30/2002 11:21:46 AM PST by Restorer
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To: Restorer
A thought just struck me.

Why doesn't Saruman steal his Ring from Gandalf when he is holding him prisoner? Isn't he aware that Gandalf holds one of the Three? Wouldn't Gandalf have told his superior sometime over the previous thousand years? Or is he unable to take it away against Gandalf's will?

BTW, how about that auto-homing staff of Gandalf? Saruman takes it away, and he doesn't have it when he escapes on eagle back. But then he has it again in Rivendell.

He presumably loses it again on the Bridge, but then he has it again (also presumably his sword Orcrist) in TTT.

1,403 posted on 03/30/2002 11:26:53 AM PST by Restorer
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To: Restorer;JenB
The staff after Orthanc is a new staff... that was mentioned in some of the earlier threads... The first staff had a hidey hole for a pipe... the new one is different and has the handy light on it. Gandalf never actually wears his Ring until the departure at the Grey Havens. Elrond also hides his ring. Do they have them stashed somewhere or do they have a concealed weapons permits... JenB?
1,404 posted on 03/30/2002 11:31:48 AM PST by HairOfTheDog
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To: Restorer
I think Gandalf has a different staff after his imprisonment. If you compare his staff before and after, they look different. So he must either have a stash somewhere, or someone gave him a new one. Maybe he can just pick up any ol' treebranch and make a new staff, lol...

As for why Saruman didn't take the ring, I wondered if there might be some secrecy surrounding Gandalf's possession of the ring. At the end of RotK, there's some mention that only then was Gandalf actually wearing the ring openly. So perhaps Saruman didn't know Gandalf possessed it.

1,405 posted on 03/30/2002 11:35:12 AM PST by Penny1
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To: HairOfTheDog
Oops, you beat me to it! LOL...

Are you here? I am hanging out in the chatroom...

1,406 posted on 03/30/2002 11:36:03 AM PST by Penny1
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To: HairOfTheDog
In the book, only certain people (notably Frodo) are able to see Galadriel's Ring. Maybe the same is true of Gandalf's. Concealing itself from sight would certainly be an easy task for a device of such power.

Does anybody remember seeing a ring on Gandalf's hand? There is a closeup of them at the point he's hanging on at the Bridge.

I saw the movie again last night to see the trailer and I actually saw the famous car (or whatever it was) in the cornfield scene. It was definitely something moving.

I guess I'll have to see the movie for the tenth time and watch Gandalf's handses. Darn!

1,407 posted on 03/30/2002 11:53:08 AM PST by Restorer
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To: Restorer
Darn indeed!
1,408 posted on 03/30/2002 12:03:29 PM PST by HairOfTheDog
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To: jrherreid; HairOfTheDog; RosieCotton; billbears; ObfusGate; austinTparty; Texas2step; billbears...
It appears as if the *Tolkien list is dead. Tolkien-related stuff has its own topic now: hobbit (It appears as The Hobbit Hole)

Click here to subscribe to "The Hobbit Hole"

Now... how do I move this forum to appear above Breaking News...

1,409 posted on 03/30/2002 12:42:27 PM PST by John Farson
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To: John Farson;John Robinson
Oooh Goodie! - Happy to have a Hobbit topic! And we are a daily! - how very legitimate that makes me feel! Thank You!
1,410 posted on 03/30/2002 12:54:16 PM PST by HairOfTheDog
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To: HairOfTheDog
Neat - we have our own topic to subscribe too, and we're "hobbits"! Who arranged that?

To everyone who was debating before, there is no Denethor in the trailer because, well, Denethor isn't in Two Towers. At all. Or at least, not in the book!

1,411 posted on 03/30/2002 1:09:06 PM PST by JenB
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To: JenB
I asked for Tolkien, but Hobbit is close enough. I subscribed, and now the Hobbit Hole, and the Green Dragon, and all the other new Hobbity threads are all on my sidebars... cool!
1,412 posted on 03/30/2002 1:11:11 PM PST by HairOfTheDog
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To: HairOfTheDog
Me too - how great! I hafta work on picking what I want on sidebars...
1,413 posted on 03/30/2002 1:13:21 PM PST by JenB
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To: JenB
I currently have breaking news, my state news, and hobbits... state news may have to go if I run out of room ;~D
1,414 posted on 03/30/2002 1:15:37 PM PST by HairOfTheDog
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To: HairOfTheDog
I asked for Tolkien, but Hobbit is close enough.

Wow. Thanks!

1,415 posted on 03/30/2002 1:27:04 PM PST by John Farson
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To: John Farson
Well, in fairness, the fact that John named it Hobbit instead of Tolkien means it may have been his idea to give us a Topic, and not mine at all. - He has had about 10,000 requests for stuff, and my specific request may have been lost altogether. Just happy he paid us some mind!
1,416 posted on 03/30/2002 1:33:55 PM PST by HairOfTheDog
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To: HairOfTheDog
Bumping that thought... and really, Hobbit can cover as much as Tolkien, right? Because it can decently cover news about Hobbit Holes that might seem a little odd if we defined Tolkien as about only the books and movie, but this can cover fan news too.

Besides, I'm a hobbity kind person, so this makes me happy. And no one has to worry about mispelling 'Tolkien'. Anyone seen the trailer again? New impressions or anything?

1,417 posted on 03/30/2002 1:58:41 PM PST by JenB
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To: JenB
I haven't seen it again. Probably will tomorrow evening... tonight... hmmm... maybe. It is tough now that I have to go 30 miles :( But the Tacoma theater sure is nice! I think the old hometown theater I got so used to has gum stuck to the seats that I may have put there as a kid.
1,418 posted on 03/30/2002 2:05:14 PM PST by HairOfTheDog
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To: HairOfTheDog;John Robinson;Jim Robinson
Just happy he paid us some mind!

At FreeRepublic, JohnRob=Illuvatar. Or is that JimRob. By the way, it looks like our pics that aren't displaying aren't going to, at least according to Texaggie79 on another thread:

When will we be able to link fromthe FR image site server again?

770 posted on 3/30/02 8:02 AM Eastern by RedBloodedAmerican
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To: RedBloodedAmerican

John turned it off because that image server is only for captioning on that forum. He said in the future he will put up a photo album section.

799 posted on 3/30/02 2:31 PM Eastern by Texaggie79

So it looks like are pictures are going to have to be moved. One of you picture poster types are going to have to do it.

1,419 posted on 03/30/2002 2:05:34 PM PST by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
are=our Jeesh!
1,420 posted on 03/30/2002 2:07:52 PM PST by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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