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0:07 · [Music]
0:13 · Hello and welcome back to Let the Stones Speak. I'm Brent Nagal, the host of the program. I've got to talk to you about
0:19 · this amazing discovery that's just taken place in the city of David, ancient Jerusalem. Uh they have carbonated a
0:25 · massive dam wall that's over 11 mters um high at the bottom of the city of David
0:31 · connecting what's known as the city of David to the western hill basically bridging this this valley the Tyropoeon
0:37 · valley and they've dated it to 2,800 years ago predating I think some of the
0:43 · best estimates by about a hundred years um but we didn't have any conclusive evidence of the dating and so this is
0:49 · really important it's it's making headlines uh all through Israel and then some other places in the world as well
0:56 · just because it puts the dating of this huge construction back into the time pe period of the biblical kings. So what
1:04 · we're going to do for today's program is watch a little video that the city of David and the antiquities authority
1:09 · produced. Uh and then we are going to discuss the underlying research paper
1:14 · about this discovery or let's just say the dating of this discovery and then
1:19 · I'll share with you some my some of my thoughts about what are the ramifications in terms of uh biblical
1:25 · history and archaeology that this discovery has. So, first of all, let's go to this video. Really well produced
1:31 · uh by the Antiquities Authority and and the City of David Foundation alongside the Wiseman Institute. Here it is.
2:00 · [Music]
2:10 · [Music] forch.
2:22 · [Music]
3:01 · So the unique thing about our lab is that we actually come and take the samples ourselves in the field.
3:30 · We took three different mortal samples from the three places and took straw out
3:36 · of them. Basically, they all gave the exact same measurement, 800 BC.
3:57 · We have been working in Jerusalem already more than 10 years. It was a great surprise to see that many other
4:04 · buildings indeed related to water were dated at the same time. When we saw
4:11 · this, a question came of course why? What happened around 800 in these
4:18 · centuries? We saw and we could explain this uh huge activity in building for
4:26 · water accumulation to build the relation to the climate change. And so the people
4:31 · in Jerusalem understood that if I want to survive here with this very seldom,
4:37 · very random climate, I need a reservoir.
5:07 · So yeah, phenomenal discovery here. They've linked it to climate change uh
5:13 · and some of the the um influx of drought and then also flash floods during the
5:18 · 9th century. And perhaps this is the reason why they decided to dam off these areas to to build a reservoir. Uh we'll
5:25 · talk a little bit about that, but I mainly want to focus on the construction
5:30 · um when this was constructed, when it was built, and and then some of the ramifications for dating of things in
5:37 · the city of David from archaeology including the the science of carbon 14
5:42 · or radiocarbon dating as well. First, let's go to the paper itself. Uh this paper was published in the PNAS journal.
5:49 · It's entitled radiocarbon dating of Jerusalem Salom Dam links climate data and major waterworks. So you got a
5:56 · couple of ideas here. One is we've got a huge dam. They've just been uncovering it for the past year and a half. We've
6:02 · walked down there me many times and seen their um their work that they've done um
6:07 · removing this what is known as the Siloam Pool. Uh that's what it's known by today. Um, and they've been removing
6:14 · this and then as they got to the bottom of it, they've also done some recently done some carbon sampling as well. And
6:21 · so this is part of the paper and then also they are linking it together with other dating of water features that
6:28 · they've done previously around the spring itself known as the spring tower and then also a sistern more in the
6:34 · northwestern part of the ancient city of David. Now this is important because they are trying to link all three of
6:39 · these water installations to sometime in the 9th century and then putting it together what else happened during the 9th century well there was a change in
6:46 · the climate and so on. Now I think the best part of this article is probably from the newest element that they're
6:52 · adding um and that is the redating or the dating of this dam wall to 800 BC.
6:59 · So you'll remember that this the period of when things are dated or when things were built in Jerusalem is a pretty big
7:06 · deal. The Bible says that David was the original conqueror of Jerusalem around a thousand and then his son King Solomon.
7:12 · He's the builder of Jerusalem, greatly expanding the city towards the north. And then just when the city expanded
7:19 · from this eastern ridge, which includes the city of David, the Oll area, Mount Mariah, when it expands across the
7:26 · Tyropoeon Valley uh towards the west to the higher western hill, we don't really
7:32 · know. It's been up for debate for a long time. And so this anytime that we have
7:38 · earlier dating than preconceived or earlier dating than uh the scholy opinion is I think it's important
7:46 · because you are actually pushing back towards what would be more considered I would say a biblical date uh for some of
7:52 · these construction projects. Let's go to the paper. This is how the paper starts.
7:57 · Using wellestablished microarchchaeological sampling methods or this is the summary. We reached a
8:03 · precise radio radiocarbon date of 800 BC for the Saleom Pools monumental water
8:10 · dam in Jerusalem. This is a huge dam. Um my father actually did big dams like
8:16 · this or even bigger ones uh between valleys and things like this. So I remember as a young a young fell going
8:22 · out to work with him and he's got all the heavy machinery making these massive dam walls um to collect rainwater and
8:28 · things like this. And to think that, hey, this was done and put together 2,800 years ago with these monumental
8:35 · walls using ashlar stones. These are worked bedrock stones and then the whole thing being plastered. Um, it's it's
8:43 · it's it's amazing. I mean, it's 19 m long as you as you uh saw. It's 11 m
8:49 · high, uh 10 m wide in thickness because there's a lot of water pressure. Since
8:54 · you got that much water pressure on this, it needs to be quite quite thick. Okay, back to the paper. It says, this
9:01 · is how it begins. The need for water has always been a key factor for the placement of settlements in the Levant.
9:08 · Thus, it's no surprise that Jerusalem's earliest settlement was built around the Guhon spring, located in the eastern
9:14 · slope of the southeastern ridge, popularly known as the city of David. I don't know why this is in quotes.
9:22 · City of David. It's popular to put the city of David in quotes for some reason. um known as the city of David. That's
9:28 · the biblical terminology for this area. It's the city of David. So, I don't know why it necessarily has quotes. Although
9:33 · several ancient water systems elements have been exposed, the lack of absolute dating and vastly different attributed
9:40 · dates have made it impossible to consider them as a single system. With the new radiocarbon dates, a picture of
9:46 · a well planned and executed large water system is emerging. So it's putting together these three again water system
9:51 · in the north spring tower fortifications in the in the in the east and then in the south now we have this um pool. So
10:02 · it's going to go through some of the dating and we'll just start with this. I think it's a little bit easier to start with the dating that they came up with
10:08 · for the spring tower. Now the spring tower is huge. The stones that are used
10:13 · in the Spring Tower are irregularshaped massive boulders that are put together
10:20 · and these walls are just huge. Um, they were dated by the excavators themselves
10:26 · to the Middle Bronze Age, too. So, we're going back 1800 BCE, time of Abraham, uh, to put a
10:35 · biblical personality or a little bit thereafter. Um, and it goes all the way around the spring, the Kikihon spring
10:40 · itself, which is in the valley. Not all the way in the valley, but very close. It's on the on the western side of the
10:46 · Kidron Valley. Um, and then it goes around it as a defense. Now, they came
10:52 · and carbonated this a few years ago, and they dated a part of it that is right on the exterior of it. Not in the guts of
10:58 · it, not underneath one of these massive boulders, not in the not in the construction of it, but kind of
11:04 · underneath. Is it underneath? Is it not really underneath? That's why there's some debate over this. Um the excavators
11:11 · put it to middle bronze age. The construction style matches the middle bronze age. I actually don't think that
11:16 · there are too many people that would redate the whole um large monumental uh
11:23 · fortification around the spring out of the middle bronze age completely. Perhaps there was and indeed there most
11:29 · likely was some type of um washing in or even a restoration project that was done
11:36 · in the 9th century maybe going down towards well in the 9th century. I'm not saying that but I wouldn't redate the
11:43 · whole thing out of the middle bronze age. I don't think uh the data calls for it. Nevertheless, from this location you
11:51 · have two channels that feed water down towards where this dam is. The earliest
11:57 · one of these is known as channel two. Uh this is what Nakshan Zanton there in
12:02 · that video referred to. That's what he was standing in coming out of. And this is the original water channel that feeds
12:09 · water down into this dam. And it's if you visit the city of David and you're
12:15 · going down towards what's known as Hezekiah's tunnel um today before you
12:21 · hit the water and you look to your left or your left um that's where the what's
12:27 · known as the can I've got signs there for the Canaanite tunnel they call it and this used to take the water the
12:33 · water used to go from the Guehon spring into a large pool that's still there
12:38 · travel down channel 2 and then fill up what we know now as this pool that was
12:44 · there during at the very latest 800 B.CE. Now when 100 years later King
12:52 · Hezekiah is preparing for the Assyrian siege, the Bible says that he builds a conduit uh a water tunnel a tala and it
13:00 · goes underneath brings the water from the spring uh to the western side of the
13:06 · city. This is a tunnel that's mentioned in three different uh passages in the Bible. Isaiah, Chronicles, and Kings
13:13 · talk about this waterworks that uh the prophet uh that Hezekiah did around
13:19 · probably just before 700. And so when he did that, since Hezekiah's tunnel or
13:24 · this tunnel that Hezekiah built is lower, then the upper tunnel channel 2 that used to feed this dam fell out of
13:32 · use. So water is no longer traveling through this channel 2. It's all
13:38 · traveling through what's come to known as be known as Hezekiah's tunnel. And I
13:43 · don't think although there are some that would be willing or want to push Hezekiah's tunnel out of the time period
13:49 · of Hezekiah, I don't believe the evidence points to that. Even the carbon sample that they took underneath the
13:54 · floor of Hezek or in Hezekiah's tunnel dates to later than the construction period of this dam. I think the fact
14:01 · that four samples all date to around 800 speaks to 800 being the construction
14:06 · period of this um of this dam wall. Let's just get to this part in a second.
14:12 · This is results and discussion. Sylom Pool Dam. We collected chunks of hard
14:18 · yellowish mortar in between the outer stones of the dam's vertical part wall
14:24 · 001. Two separately collected uncharred straw samples were dated from the mortar
14:29 · and a third sample consisted of a few charred twigs. Then from the slanting reinforcement core reinforcements core
14:38 · we dated one sample of charred straw fragments from the mortar. All four
14:43 · dates were very similar and could be averaged giving a calibrated combined date of basically 800. Um so very cool.
14:53 · This is absolutely great because it in terms of reconstructing the history of
14:59 · the area of the city of David, it means they had a massive water reservoir at least by the 8th century uh by the start
15:05 · very start of the 8th century. But it also means that something else is going on here. Um it means that um Hezekiah's
15:14 · tunnel, this other tunnel which makes the channel two fall out of use. channel
15:20 · 2 remembering remembering that this is the one that filled of course it was filled the the pool or the the dam. It
15:26 · was also filled probably from runoff. Hezekiah's tunnel actually exits at a point that is further along or further
15:33 · up the hill from the um from the pool itself and in up the hill inside the
15:40 · Tyropoeon Valley. And so just a couple of points about this now in terms of its um
15:47 · what might be let's say might because I don't it's very hard to prove all of this at this point but I think this
15:54 · discovery gives a new interpretation
15:59 · um or evidence for a different interpretation than what I had previously con conceived uh for the
16:05 · ancient water systems of Jerusalem. If I was going to put the ancient water systems of Jerusalem together, you have
16:11 · three different systems. You have the first one that's related to the middle bronze age uh that is defending or
16:17 · around maybe three or four around the the spring itself. And from that you have the included in that same time
16:24 · period most likely is you have the huge water uh or the large pool that is by
16:29 · the spring itself and that water is retrieved from there. Later on, I don't
16:35 · know exactly when, at least by 800, based on this evidence, they build a dam
16:41 · uh all the way down at the bottom of the city of David and for a reservoir. Perhaps the pool that's halfway there on
16:47 · the city of halfway down the city of David uh by the Guhon spring isn't large enough anymore. The city has expanded by
16:54 · this time period and so they need more water collection and so they're going to build a dam and have a new reservoir
17:01 · there now. And then after that time period, we have Hezekiah for some reason
17:08 · deciding that I need to build a new tunnel at a huge expense and manpower
17:14 · because they built this tunnel goes 1700 meters. It goes through solid rock. They
17:20 · they need to do it fast. So they come at it from both from both ends. And the exit point of this is not anywhere near
17:26 · channel 2. It doesn't make sense. You already have a water tunnel going called channel 2 going to this dam. So why
17:33 · build another one? Now why build another one? My question would be perhaps this dam itself, this
17:40 · dam that they're finding right now was not actually inside the city walls. You
17:46 · remember as Hezekiah is preparing for the siege or the Assyrian invasion, the
17:51 · Assyrian king Sinakaribb comes down and takes over all the different cities of Judah and he's bearing down in
17:57 · Jerusalem. And then King Hezekiah prepares to bring the waters blocks. It says the upper water course of the
18:03 · Guehon. 2 Chronicles chapter 32 and:e30. This is the English Standard Version. It
18:08 · says, "The same Hezekiah closed the upper outlet of the waters of the Guhon and directed them down the west down to
18:17 · the west side of the city of David. And Hezekiah prospered in all his works." So
18:22 · this upper water course of the Guihon that is channel two most likely and that
18:27 · flowed down to this dam and instead and which is basically south and a little
18:32 · bit to the west of where the Guhon spring is. And this is saying that no he brought it not through this town
18:39 · channel. He blocked that channel and the way he block it is just make a make another tunnel with lower elevation to
18:46 · force the water to go through there. gravity. We'll make sure it goes through that one and bring it to an outlet that
18:52 · is further up on the Tyropoeon Valley and more in the western side of the city.
18:57 · And so that's what it says here that he succeeded in doing this. And then of course at in Hezekiah's tunnel, you also
19:04 · have this beautiful inscription at the very end of it which talks about how these teams and it's written in in
19:09 · perfect late 8th century uh PaleoHebrew writing. They came from both sides and
19:14 · you know they got to the to the point of meeting and they you know went pick against pick and you could the water
19:20 · flowed and so on and you actually walk through Hezekiah Hezekiah's tunnel and you can see the place at which they met
19:26 · where the carving from one side looks this way and the coming from the next side looks that way and then there's a
19:31 · little dip the only place there's a dip in the whole of Hezekiah's tunnel for 1700 ft is right where they met matching
19:38 · perfectly the the inscription uh that's currently in the museum. museum uh in Istanbul.
19:44 · So if what this means is if if Hezekiah is preparing for the siege blocks off
19:50 · the one channel. Now why does he block off the one channel if you go to um
19:55 · further beginning on this in this chapter it says this in 2 Chronicles 32
20:00 · and:e3 says he uh he planned with his officers and these mighty men how to
20:05 · stop the water of the springs that were outside the city and they helped him. Now, does this mean all the springs
20:11 · outside of Jerusalem? I mean, the theme of this chapter is about the preparations for the siege of Jerusalem.
20:17 · And so, uh, I'm not sure. Maybe it just just relates to Jerusalem. Maybe it relates to more. However, by the end of
20:23 · it, it does talk about him blocking a spring so that water comes into the
20:28 · city, into the western side of the city. Uh verse uh the next verse, verse four
20:34 · says, "And a great many people were gathered and they stopped all the springs and the brook that flowed through the land." It seems again
20:40 · they're not blocking the Jordan. They're not blocking another stream. It seems this is talking about the stream that
20:46 · the brook or the stream that came uh from the Guhon perhaps
20:51 · uh they stopped all the springs and the brook that flowed through the land, saying, "Why should the kings of Assyria come and find much water?" much water.
20:59 · They're going to find much water. But we've got to stop them from finding much water. And then it says uh then Hezekiah he set
21:06 · work uh to work resolutely and built up all the wall that was broken down, raised the towers on it and so on. So
21:13 · he's preparing uh for the um siege. Another passage in Isaiah chapter 22
21:20 · talks about more of these preparations for the siege. Again, Isaiah is contemporary with Hezekiah. They're
21:26 · existing at the same time. We found the Hezekiah buller and the Isaiah seal impression right next to each other on
21:32 · the with Dr. Elot Mazar that was reported about a decade ago. Now these were two
21:38 · figures that were very much together. And in the book of Isaiah chapter 22
21:45 · and verse 9, it says this and this is from uh and from the English Standard Version
21:52 · again. It says, "And you saw that the breaches of the city of David were many
21:57 · and you collected or gathered together the waters of the lower pool." Now in
22:05 · the in the book of Isaiah you have the Guehon spring is mentioned a couple of times and the water that comes from it.
22:12 · Uh the earliest mention is in Isaiah chapter 8 and it says that the waters
22:18 · that the people rejected the uh waters of Shiloak that flow softly. And this is
22:25 · the start of the book and so this is probably before Hezekiah's channel is Hezekiah's tunnel is built. So you have
22:31 · that and then as you go on this is probably channel two and they're rejecting uh those slow waters and then
22:38 · you have the situation where they're building a new tunnel and you have two pools discussed a lower pool and an
22:44 · upper pool one that was higher in elevation and it says you have what did
22:49 · you do? You gathered together the waters of the lower pool. What is the lower pool? It seems to me that the lower pool
22:56 · is this one that they just found. this one that used to have water in it. But
23:01 · when Hezekiah built his tunnel, did this one continue to have water in it? That's the big question. My question would be,
23:09 · is there another early pool? Let's say it's a little bit later than the 8th
23:14 · century and it located further towards where Hezekiah's tunnel um ends and that
23:22 · that itself was inside the city. He brought it inside the city. Otherwise,
23:27 · why the need to build a new conduit if both conduits are taking water to the same old pool? It makes sense that there
23:34 · were actually two. Now, if you go into to a later period, perhaps it is that they've more morphed into one. I'm not
23:41 · saying that. However, it seems to me that there were two pools here located inside the the Tyropoeon Valley. One of
23:50 · them was bigger. One of them was um is the one that they found and they've
23:55 · dated to 800 and then perhaps a later one where Hezekiah built uh directed his
24:03 · water to um it's it's hard to know for sure but I think that's what the
24:08 · biblical reconstruction says. Now before the dating of this I didn't really think
24:13 · about it too much. I had this question a lot of people ask me so is this the lower pool? Is this the upper pool? Is this the old pool? And I was always very
24:20 · hesitant because I didn't really it was very hard for me to piece it all together. However, this one's lower and
24:28 · it's older than it seems to be the pool that Hezekiah would have built um to
24:33 · safeguard the waters of the Guhon and to stop the Assyrian kings from coming to get it. So what's then interesting in my
24:42 · mind and I'm going far further than what they say in this paper again great work to the archaeologists great work to the
24:49 · the staff of the Wisman Institute Joanna Regv Elizabeth uh Berto um with their
24:56 · work here really adding to the reconstruction and the history of Jerusalem through these dates that
25:02 · they've given but I'm I'm interested in you know what is the earliest possible date for this
25:09 · The latest possible date we have for its construction, they just gave it to us, 800. Now, if you look in in the biblical
25:16 · text, when is the uh earliest mention of a pool that would be connected to a
25:23 · king? Now, there's tradition about Solomon's pools that are far later. Um,
25:30 · and so they're not necessarily, I would say, bound by the text. However, if we
25:35 · go back to um the book of Ecclesiastes, now this this book uh is generally
25:41 · attributed to Solomon, although there's big conjecture about when everything was written down. However, it does say in
25:48 · Ecclesiastes that whoever is writing this in Eccles Ecclesiastes, and I think it matches be best with the character of
25:55 · Solomon, it actually talks about pools. It says this in Ecclesiastes 2:6. It
26:02 · says, "I built reservoirs to water my groves." This is an individual of
26:07 · flourishing trees. And so he's got flourishing trees around. I guess doesn't say Jerusalem,
26:13 · but it could be. And um it's a pool that's associated with it. Now
26:20 · connecting this another step, you have the book of the Song of Songs, Shir
26:25 · Shirim, and the great um Gabrielle Bakai. Um probably
26:32 · the best or let's say the the living archaeologist that knows the most about the history of Jerusalem. He's just come
26:40 · out with a paper which discusses the early writing the 10th century date for
26:46 · the the writing of the Song of Songs or we sometimes in in English Bible we call
26:51 · the Song of Solomon. It's generally attributed to Solomon and that's come under attack obviously for a long long
26:56 · long time that it wasn't written by Solomon. However, according to him, um, from the text itself and the historical
27:02 · references and so on, it matches best with the 10th century date. And inside that, it talks about this garden where
27:09 · King Solomon walked with all these fruitful trees and things like that. Um, and where was this king's garden? It was
27:15 · somewhere that was going to be well watered. And so, by putting these together, and I understand this is not hard science at this time, but it's
27:22 · definitely interesting to put the biblical passages together of what they found. It seems to me that there are reservoirs being built as early as the
27:30 · 10th century. And what they found here inside the mortar and inside the very top of this damn wall is a date that
27:37 · puts it start of the ninth c end of the 9th century and perhaps even earlier. Now what would be good is if they did a
27:43 · massive trench right through this damn wall. I know it's 10 meters thick and I know it's 11 m high. do a big trench all
27:50 · the way down and then let's try and get some dating material from the earlier from the foundation because often times
27:56 · in Jerusalem this place that's fraught with um earthquakes
28:01 · um you have reconstructions being done on the same location time and time again the Milo for instance it's mentioned
28:08 · Hezekiah strengthen the Milo uh it's mentioned that Solomon strengthens the Milo it's mentioned that David builds
28:14 · the Malo so they're all doing construction the same place and if you would have picked off a a stone off the
28:19 · top of the millow. If it is the stepstone structure in Jerusalem, maybe you'll get a date that dates to
28:24 · Hezekiah's time. I'm not sure, but get into the core. And do we find something
28:30 · from even earlier than the 9th century? I'm not sure. This is an archaeologist wish list right now. Um, but it could be
28:37 · dating all the way back to this time period. Now, again, they have done
28:43 · fantastic work on this. So pleased that we have another
28:49 · monumental construction project that is dating even earlier than first um
28:57 · thought. uh possible perhaps even it goes well with what the the carbon dating study that was released last year
29:04 · that took dates from the very northwestern part of the city of David off the top of the ridge into the
29:10 · Tyropoeon Valley again and they found a building building 100 there and they have carbon dates even though they they
29:18 · kind of pushed it it's in the study towards the in their summary towards the mid-9th century their dates matched to
29:25 · the late 10th century BCE And so I think you we have this wave of
29:32 · dates that are coming out um be it down in the south city of David be it in the
29:37 · Gavati that are pushing back these building construction projects early.
29:43 · Now, one final thought is this comes up often um and this is about when
29:50 · Jerusalem expanded off the eastern ridge off the city of David ridge and there is
29:57 · more and more evidence to provide an early date for this. Shortly after the 10th century or perhaps in the latter
30:04 · part of the 10th century, you have first construction taking place off the top of the ridge into the Tyropoeon Valley.
30:12 · Maybe the city wall didn't go around it yet. Maybe the there was no city wall even around this pool until Hezekiah
30:19 · well until maybe the city wall was a little bit further toward up the the Tyropoeon Valley. I'm not sure. But as
30:25 · more excavation gets done and as more precise measuring of dating gets is used
30:31 · and utilized, we are finding earlier dates. And that means that the whole I think western hill was probably settled
30:37 · a little bit earlier than anticipated. I also think it's very important what they're doing with these calibrated
30:43 · carbon dates. The reason why it's important is because often times
30:48 · archaeologically the only way that we can get dating is dating through the floors, the floors of the building
30:54 · itself. So you've got the wall and then you've got the stuff underneath the floor, the floor itself, and the stuff on top of the floor. And it gives you a
31:00 · dating construction window for the building itself. But the problem with this is and the problem with a place
31:05 · that's not destroyed often and in Jerusalem was no real destructions from the 10th to the 10th centuries till the
31:12 · mass massive earthquake a couple hundred years later. And so what would be the most accurate way to date the buildings
31:20 · when the floors themselves are used for hundreds of years? This is the problem with dating to the traditional way only
31:28 · I would say in Jerusalem or let's say problem of utilizing only the traditional way to date buildings in
31:34 · Jerusalem. Um the best way is to get into the construction materials. The best way is
31:40 · get into the walls themselves. Get into the walls and that's what they've done here. I think this is opening up a great
31:47 · window for more specific dating for structures in Jerusalem and hopefully we'll use more of that in the future.
31:54 · But thanks very much for staying with me through this. Just a I can't wait to tour this again. I was down there about
31:59 · a month ago to walk through this area. Um Nakshan was concluding a tour just as
32:06 · I got there. I was still at the area working on our excavations and so I
32:11 · missed the start of the tour. Um but it it is a huge
32:17 · um dam project and a great contribution to the study of ancient Jerusalem. So
32:23 · well done to the whole team and uh thanks very much for listening to the program. If you like what we're covering
32:28 · on this program, don't forget to like and subscribe to our channel. Uh and also if you want our magazine, don't
32:34 · forget to write to letters armstrongstitute.org or go to our website armstronginstitute.org
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32:46 · and archaeology. Thanks very much for listening.