Posted on 08/24/2025 8:02:46 AM PDT by marcusmaximus
While ignoring Ukrainian Banderite flags and Neo-Nazi Ukrainians at Warsaw rap concerts a couple of weeks ago.
Russia did it!
The Poles and Ukrainians both know who the real enemy is.
A lifetime ago I took a political science course. The professor wanted us to look at 20th century politics from “the other person’s” point of view.
One thing he discussed was the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Stalin had been shut out of all previous Allied discussions with Hitler. In particular, the Soviets were not invited to the 1938 Munich conference, even though Czechoslovakia was right on the USSR’s doorstep.
So maybe Stalin thought he was next on Germany’s list. So better to make a deal now.
This does NOT mean Stalin was a good guy, trying to do the right thing. It just gives some insight into his thinking.
By the way, the professor was a fierce anticommunist. Probably none of them left at universities today
I had no idea what a "Ukrainian Banderite flag" was, so I looked it up and came across this image.
Ukraine is a more fractious mess than I realized.
What was remarkable about that time period, American leftists were insistent that the US not get involved whatsoever in any way in this Soviet/Nazi carving up of Poland and the rest of it. The Socialists were allies!
Pete Seeger and that crew had folk music albums that they recalled, once the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union. They all did a 180 literally overnight, demanding the US enter their war.
Did your professor ask you to look at the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact from the Poland point of view, too?
“if they weren’t in fact a Russian false flag op.”
Germany blamed Poland for starting WWII.
Putin blamed Ukraine for this war.
Far right received 2% of the vote in the last Ukrainian election, far less than in any other European country.
> Did your professor ask you to look at the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact from the Poland point of view, too? <
Yes. But not specifically about the Pact, which the Poles didn’t even know about until it was too late.
Poor Poland was caught between two monsters. The Poles had very little maneuvering room, diplomatically or otherwise.
Oh, and one more thing. This is where Pat Buchanan lost me. Buchanan argues that the West should have just given Poland to Hitler. No need for war.
I find that belief disgusting.
LOL, Russians hate it when its pointed out that only THEIR treaty with the nazis divided Poland and eastern Europe between the two signers.
The secret clause of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was a secret protocol that divided the countries of Eastern Europe into German and Soviet "spheres of influence" . Signed on August 23, 1939, this pact paved the way for the invasion and partition of Poland and the Soviet annexation of the Baltic states.
Next we can do Kellogg-Briand....
Or maybe have read:
Rossoliński-Liebe, Grzegorz (2014). Stepan Bandera: The Life and Afterlife of a Ukrainian Nationalist : Fascism, Genocide, and Cult. Ibidem-Verlag.The world's a mess, the world's history more complex than a snapshot. Multi-sided. Mulitvalent, borrowing a word from chemistry.
BTTT
Really? You're arguing that the Piłsudski-Hitler Pact, or the German–Polish declaration of non-aggression is EXACTLY the same as the Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement, that secretly divided Europe and led to the invasions of Poland by Germany and of the Russian invasion of Finland, starting WW2
There was also a secret protocol to the pact, which was revealed only after Germany's defeat in 1945 although hints about its provisions had been leaked much earlier, so as to influence Lithuania. According to the protocol, Poland, Romania, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, and Finland were divided into German and Soviet "spheres of influence". In the north, Finland, Estonia, and Latvia were assigned to the Soviet sphere. Poland was to be partitioned in the event of its "political rearrangement": the areas east of the Pisa, Narew, Vistula, and San rivers would go to the Soviet Union, and Germany would occupy the west. Warsaw, in turn, would be effectively divided between them into two parts. Lithuania, which was adjacent to East Prussia, was assigned to the German sphere of influence, but a second secret protocol, agreed to in September 1939, reassigned Lithuania to the Soviet Union.
> The world’s a mess, the world’s history more complex than a snapshot. <
Yes. In many ways, international politics is like a game of poker. It matters what you’re holding. It matters what your opponent is holding.
And it very much matters what each of you think the other is holding.
I believe that was the point the professor was trying to make (my post #7).
Stalin was not naïve, he understood that destiny almost certainly meant a clash between fascism and communism. He miscalculated, he thought the Ribbentrop/Molotov pact would precipitate the war but a war between capitalists that would exhaust both sides.
He did not anticipate that Nazi Germany was capable of defeating France and everybody else in 6 weeks. He foresaw a a grinding war of attrition like the First World War that would weaken contending capitalists.
Stalin was to pay for his crime with more than 10 million Russian lives in due time. The cynicism of Russia extends from Czars to commissars and Vladimir Putin.
Excellent analysis.
Right after the signing of the treaty US professors and activists were all gooey eyed over Adolf and Stalin, both. Domestic commies were instructed (yes, instructed — USSR docs came out after the wall fell proving this) to speak nicely about Adolf.
Then, Germany invaded Russia. Oopsie. Now, new instructions were out to domestic commies to attack Nazis at every opportunity.
The point is, domestic political forces were owned by foreign powers.
> Then, Germany invaded Russia. Oopsie. Now, new instructions were out to domestic commies to attack Nazis at every opportunity. <
Yes, indeed. And here’s a fun fact. The American commies were told to call the Nazis “fascists”, and not Nazis. The same rule applied in Soviet press.
And that’s because “Nazi” is the German abbreviation for “National Socialist German Workers Party”.
Can’t have the rubes realize that the Nazis are Socialists!
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