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--> YouTube-Generated Transcript <--
0:00 · one of the topics that occasionally
0:02 · comes up not only in popular history and
0:05 · its Associated spaces but also among
0:07 · professional academics historians and
0:10 · archaeologists mainly is whether or not
0:12 · ancient peoples like the Greeks and the
0:14 · Romans or the Babylonians or the various
0:17 · Chinese dynasties or other states in
0:19 · East Asia or in the Americas among many
0:21 · many others ever encountered fossils and
0:25 · if they did what exactly they thought
0:28 · these things were so in this video we're
0:31 · going to be talking about one of these
0:33 · supposed encounters with a fossil from
0:35 · the ancient world and that is the
0:37 · monster of
0:39 · Troy so what is this monster of Troy and
0:42 · is this thing actually a fossil and if
0:44 · it's not then what could it
0:47 · be well this like so many other things
0:50 · from ancient Greece is a monster slain
0:52 · by a hero specifically Heracles or
0:55 · Hercules if you want to use the Roman
0:57 · version of his name after a year of
0:59 · being enslaved to the queen of Lydia
1:02 · Heracles journeyed to Troy and when he
1:05 · arrives there he finds that the king of
1:07 · Troy
1:08 · lamdon is in some serious trouble Apollo
1:12 · and Poseidon had built the walls of Troy
1:15 · and the King was trying to cheat them
1:16 · out of payment so naturally Poseidon
1:20 · sent a monster to attack the city and
1:22 · the surrounding lands and it would only
1:24 · be appeased when it had devoured the
1:26 · King's Daughter
1:28 · hision but this does not happen because
1:32 · Heracles agrees to kill the monster in
1:34 · exchange for the king's horses which he
1:37 · had received from Zeus and Heracles
1:40 · successfully kills the monster by
1:42 · allowing himself to be swallowed and
1:44 · then cutting up the creatures insides
1:46 · the king decides to not pay again so
1:49 · Heracles raised an Army against him
1:52 · defeats the king and then captures Troy
1:55 · hision was given in marriage to telmon
1:58 · one of Heracles Chief companion ions and
2:00 · she is allowed to save one Trojan of her
2:03 · choosing and she selects her brother who
2:06 · eventually becomes known to us today as
2:08 · prium king of
2:10 · Troy so that's the myth this was well
2:14 · known in the classical world and
2:16 · practically all aspects of anything even
2:19 · remotely involving the Trojan War or the
2:22 · city of Troy more generally was a common
2:24 · theme in artwork which is where the
2:27 · subject of this video comes in this
2:30 · monster was known specifically as a
2:31 · ketos a sea monster it's very very
2:35 · broadly connected to sea serpents and
2:37 · that sort of thing and it shows up on
2:40 · Plenty of pottery such as this one but
2:43 · it is also depicted as looking like this
2:46 · this is a crater a vessel typically used
2:49 · to mix wine with water and this was made
2:52 · sometime between about 560 and about 540
2:56 · BC it is Corinthian originally and it is
2:59 · currently housed in the Boston Museum of
3:01 · Fine Arts in the year 2000 the
3:04 · classicist Adrienne mayor published a
3:07 · paper titled the monster of Troy vas the
3:10 · early artistic record of a vertebrate
3:11 · fossil discovery and essentially what
3:14 · she argues is the following there are
3:17 · books with titles like the Trojan War
3:19 · and Greek art the art of the Trojan War
3:21 · Etc which collect you know artwork
3:25 · dealing with that mythological SL
3:27 · semi-historical
3:28 · conflict and all of the depictions of
3:30 · the monster of Troy look broadly uniform
3:34 · but this Corinthian crater appears to
3:37 · stand out art historians have taken a
3:39 · look at this item and they've genuinely
3:41 · stated that this is a depiction of the
3:43 · monster in a cave and what you're seeing
3:47 · is the head sticking out of said cave or
3:50 · it is a serpent or a serpent-like
3:52 · creature that's sort of coiled up and
3:54 · sitting on a boulder or the ground you
3:57 · can clearly see wounds inflicted from
3:59 · arrows and Stones presumably thrown by
4:01 · Heracles and T who are standing nearby
4:04 · this is the earliest depiction of this
4:06 · scene that we know of and it seems to be
4:09 · unique in the design of the ketos what
4:11 · mayor is proposing essentially is that
4:13 · this particular one was based on a
4:16 · fossil of an extinct animal so if that's
4:19 · the case then what's your evidence for
4:21 · this how well backed up is the idea and
4:24 · what do other Specialists on the subject
4:26 · think about the whole thing well Adrien
4:29 · mayor notes that the Trojan Coast is a
4:31 · region that is to this day rich in
4:33 · fossils so it's not entirely out of the
4:36 · question that maybe someone somewhere at
4:39 · some point would have seen one of these
4:41 · not known what it was and interpreted it
4:44 · as a monster essentially this is her
4:47 · argument the depiction of the ketos in
4:49 · the scene on the Corinthian crater is
4:51 · not a monster resting on a rock or a
4:53 · head sticking out of a cave it's an
4:55 · attempt to portray a fossil embedded in
4:57 · a cliff face so if that's the case then
5:00 · what sort of fossil could this be she
5:03 · consulted with seven paleontologists and
5:05 · showed them the artwork and all seven of
5:07 · them agreed that it apparently does look
5:09 · like a fossil sticking out of the
5:12 · rock they also C attention to what
5:14 · appears to be an articulated Jawbone a
5:16 · hollow eye socket teeth and a damaged or
5:20 · in fact entirely absent upper jaw the
5:23 · conclusion reached in her paper is that
5:25 · this is probably a samum so this is one
5:28 · interpretation of the crater could it
5:31 · indeed be an ancient depiction of a
5:33 · fossil well it certainly could be sure
5:36 · as far as other Specialists not only
5:38 · historians and archaeologists but also
5:41 · paleontologists and biologists are
5:43 · concerned opinion seems to be sort of
5:46 · split ultimately the argument that this
5:48 · artifact is an ancient depiction of a
5:50 · fossil boils down to well it sort of
5:53 · looks like one so for the rest of this
5:55 · video we're going to take a look at some
5:57 · criticisms of this interpretation and
5:59 · then a different proposal for what this
6:01 · actually is Mark Whitten is a
6:03 · paleontologist who has questioned this
6:05 · conclusion and for two very good reasons
6:09 · if Adrien mayor is correct he notes that
6:11 · this would be astounding it would
6:13 · probably be one of the earliest artistic
6:15 · depictions of a fossil that we currently
6:16 · know of but if it is a fossil it might
6:20 · not be samum he points out that the
6:23 · color essentially seems to be wrong
6:25 · while you do have to take into account
6:27 · artistic license the color in the
6:28 · Corinthian C is white or whitish samum
6:33 · fossils typically are not white they're
6:35 · actually more of a tan color it actually
6:37 · appears to have more in common with the
6:39 · color of more modern bones rather than
6:41 · samum fossils the other objection he
6:44 · holds is that if you're going to
6:45 · interpret this artwork as depicting a
6:47 · fossil you need to look at the whole
6:50 · thing and not just hyperfocus on one
6:52 · detail when you do that what you notice
6:55 · is that compared to everything else in
6:57 · the piece the monster itself seems to be
6:59 · sort of loosely drawn Now by itself
7:02 · that's not the final nail in the coffin
7:04 · but as this is the only example we know
7:06 · of that depicts the monster of Troy in
7:08 · this manner we need to be very critical
7:11 · of it and if it's Loosely drawn then how
7:13 · seriously are we to take these features
7:16 · this is where Julian Mong Nera a
7:20 · professor of biology at the University
7:22 · of Costa Rica comes into play in 2020 he
7:25 · published a paper which basically took
7:27 · Mayor Sam ethereum hypothesis
7:30 · and tried to test it to the extent that
7:32 · something like this can even really be
7:34 · done in four different ways he conducted
7:37 · a double blind test involving 78
7:39 · biologists who compare the art on the
7:41 · vessel with skulls of samum and various
7:45 · other animals including some reptiles he
7:48 · conducted an informed survey of 30
7:50 · students to review the hypothesis he
7:52 · conducted a computerized image analysis
7:55 · and lastly he conducted a morphological
7:58 · comparison so so essentially what he was
8:00 · attempting to do here was gather a broad
8:02 · range of data and opinions Adrien mayor
8:06 · initially only spoke to seven
8:07 · paleontologist in her paper while this
8:10 · study dealt with 108 people in total
8:13 · both biologists and students so 15 times
8:16 · the initial amount and also ran through
8:19 · computer
8:20 · models so what did he find well the
8:24 · result of each test rejected the S
8:26 · theorum
8:27 · hypothesis as disappointing as that may
8:29 · be I will say I have a lot of respect
8:31 · here for Adrian Mayer because she
8:33 · cooperated wholeheartedly with this
8:35 · study which is something that can be
8:37 · very difficult to do given that the
8:38 · findings basically took her idea and
8:40 · rejected it anyway both the computer
8:43 · models and the actual humans involved in
8:46 · the study tended to choose another
8:48 · animal as the model for the fossil if
8:50 · that is indeed what this is what they
8:52 · chose instead was a varanus A genus of
8:55 · large carnivorous
8:57 · lizard the example that many of you
8:59 · watch watching this would probably be
9:00 · familiar with is the Komodo dragon all
9:03 · of that being said any attempt to figure
9:05 · this out ultimately comes back to the
9:07 · quality of the artwork and the fact that
9:10 · this particular example of the monster
9:11 · of Troy appears to be the only one of
9:14 · its kind so despite the fossil
9:16 · hypothesis being extremely interesting
9:19 · and a fun problem to work with probably
9:21 · the best answer to this question is that
9:24 · if this is indeed a skull it either
9:26 · belongs to some carnivorous lizard such
9:29 · as something in the genus veranus as per
9:31 · the most recent study or maybe a
9:34 · crocodile skull which although they are
9:36 · not native to Asia Minor I suppose would
9:39 · not be entirely outside the realm of
9:41 · possibility so what do you think is this
9:44 · a classical depiction of a fossil
9:46 · artistic license or something else
9:49 · entirely

--> YouTube-Generated Transcript <--
0:00	·	one of the topics that occasionally
0:02	·	comes up not only in popular history and
0:05	·	its Associated spaces but also among
0:07	·	professional academics historians and
0:10	·	archaeologists mainly is whether or not
0:12	·	ancient peoples like the Greeks and the
0:14	·	Romans or the Babylonians or the various
0:17	·	Chinese dynasties or other states in
0:19	·	East Asia or in the Americas among many
0:21	·	many others ever encountered fossils and
0:25	·	if they did what exactly they thought
0:28	·	these things were so in this video we're
0:31	·	going to be talking about one of these
0:33	·	supposed encounters with a fossil from
0:35	·	the ancient world and that is the
0:37	·	monster of
0:39	·	Troy so what is this monster of Troy and
0:42	·	is this thing actually a fossil and if
0:44	·	it's not then what could it
0:47	·	be well this like so many other things
0:50	·	from ancient Greece is a monster slain
0:52	·	by a hero specifically Heracles or
0:55	·	Hercules if you want to use the Roman
0:57	·	version of his name after a year of
0:59	·	being enslaved to the queen of Lydia
1:02	·	Heracles journeyed to Troy and when he
1:05	·	arrives there he finds that the king of
1:07	·	Troy
1:08	·	lamdon is in some serious trouble Apollo
1:12	·	and Poseidon had built the walls of Troy
1:15	·	and the King was trying to cheat them
1:16	·	out of payment so naturally Poseidon
1:20	·	sent a monster to attack the city and
1:22	·	the surrounding lands and it would only
1:24	·	be appeased when it had devoured the
1:26	·	King's Daughter
1:28	·	hision but this does not happen because
1:32	·	Heracles agrees to kill the monster in
1:34	·	exchange for the king's horses which he
1:37	·	had received from Zeus and Heracles
1:40	·	successfully kills the monster by
1:42	·	allowing himself to be swallowed and
1:44	·	then cutting up the creatures insides
1:46	·	the king decides to not pay again so
1:49	·	Heracles raised an Army against him
1:52	·	defeats the king and then captures Troy
1:55	·	hision was given in marriage to telmon
1:58	·	one of Heracles Chief companion ions and
2:00	·	she is allowed to save one Trojan of her
2:03	·	choosing and she selects her brother who
2:06	·	eventually becomes known to us today as
2:08	·	prium king of
2:10	·	Troy so that's the myth this was well
2:14	·	known in the classical world and
2:16	·	practically all aspects of anything even
2:19	·	remotely involving the Trojan War or the
2:22	·	city of Troy more generally was a common
2:24	·	theme in artwork which is where the
2:27	·	subject of this video comes in this
2:30	·	monster was known specifically as a
2:31	·	ketos a sea monster it's very very
2:35	·	broadly connected to sea serpents and
2:37	·	that sort of thing and it shows up on
2:40	·	Plenty of pottery such as this one but
2:43	·	it is also depicted as looking like this
2:46	·	this is a crater a vessel typically used
2:49	·	to mix wine with water and this was made
2:52	·	sometime between about 560 and about 540
2:56	·	BC it is Corinthian originally and it is
2:59	·	currently housed in the Boston Museum of
3:01	·	Fine Arts in the year 2000 the
3:04	·	classicist Adrienne mayor published a
3:07	·	paper titled the monster of Troy vas the
3:10	·	early artistic record of a vertebrate
3:11	·	fossil discovery and essentially what
3:14	·	she argues is the following there are
3:17	·	books with titles like the Trojan War
3:19	·	and Greek art the art of the Trojan War
3:21	·	Etc which collect you know artwork
3:25	·	dealing with that mythological SL
3:27	·	semi-historical
3:28	·	conflict and all of the depictions of
3:30	·	the monster of Troy look broadly uniform
3:34	·	but this Corinthian crater appears to
3:37	·	stand out art historians have taken a
3:39	·	look at this item and they've genuinely
3:41	·	stated that this is a depiction of the
3:43	·	monster in a cave and what you're seeing
3:47	·	is the head sticking out of said cave or
3:50	·	it is a serpent or a serpent-like
3:52	·	creature that's sort of coiled up and
3:54	·	sitting on a boulder or the ground you
3:57	·	can clearly see wounds inflicted from
3:59	·	arrows and Stones presumably thrown by
4:01	·	Heracles and T who are standing nearby
4:04	·	this is the earliest depiction of this
4:06	·	scene that we know of and it seems to be
4:09	·	unique in the design of the ketos what
4:11	·	mayor is proposing essentially is that
4:13	·	this particular one was based on a
4:16	·	fossil of an extinct animal so if that's
4:19	·	the case then what's your evidence for
4:21	·	this how well backed up is the idea and
4:24	·	what do other Specialists on the subject
4:26	·	think about the whole thing well Adrien
4:29	·	mayor notes that the Trojan Coast is a
4:31	·	region that is to this day rich in
4:33	·	fossils so it's not entirely out of the
4:36	·	question that maybe someone somewhere at
4:39	·	some point would have seen one of these
4:41	·	not known what it was and interpreted it
4:44	·	as a monster essentially this is her
4:47	·	argument the depiction of the ketos in
4:49	·	the scene on the Corinthian crater is
4:51	·	not a monster resting on a rock or a
4:53	·	head sticking out of a cave it's an
4:55	·	attempt to portray a fossil embedded in
4:57	·	a cliff face so if that's the case then
5:00	·	what sort of fossil could this be she
5:03	·	consulted with seven paleontologists and
5:05	·	showed them the artwork and all seven of
5:07	·	them agreed that it apparently does look
5:09	·	like a fossil sticking out of the
5:12	·	rock they also C attention to what
5:14	·	appears to be an articulated Jawbone a
5:16	·	hollow eye socket teeth and a damaged or
5:20	·	in fact entirely absent upper jaw the
5:23	·	conclusion reached in her paper is that
5:25	·	this is probably a samum so this is one
5:28	·	interpretation of the crater could it
5:31	·	indeed be an ancient depiction of a
5:33	·	fossil well it certainly could be sure
5:36	·	as far as other Specialists not only
5:38	·	historians and archaeologists but also
5:41	·	paleontologists and biologists are
5:43	·	concerned opinion seems to be sort of
5:46	·	split ultimately the argument that this
5:48	·	artifact is an ancient depiction of a
5:50	·	fossil boils down to well it sort of
5:53	·	looks like one so for the rest of this
5:55	·	video we're going to take a look at some
5:57	·	criticisms of this interpretation and
5:59	·	then a different proposal for what this
6:01	·	actually is Mark Whitten is a
6:03	·	paleontologist who has questioned this
6:05	·	conclusion and for two very good reasons
6:09	·	if Adrien mayor is correct he notes that
6:11	·	this would be astounding it would
6:13	·	probably be one of the earliest artistic
6:15	·	depictions of a fossil that we currently
6:16	·	know of but if it is a fossil it might
6:20	·	not be samum he points out that the
6:23	·	color essentially seems to be wrong
6:25	·	while you do have to take into account
6:27	·	artistic license the color in the
6:28	·	Corinthian C is white or whitish samum
6:33	·	fossils typically are not white they're
6:35	·	actually more of a tan color it actually
6:37	·	appears to have more in common with the
6:39	·	color of more modern bones rather than
6:41	·	samum fossils the other objection he
6:44	·	holds is that if you're going to
6:45	·	interpret this artwork as depicting a
6:47	·	fossil you need to look at the whole
6:50	·	thing and not just hyperfocus on one
6:52	·	detail when you do that what you notice
6:55	·	is that compared to everything else in
6:57	·	the piece the monster itself seems to be
6:59	·	sort of loosely drawn Now by itself
7:02	·	that's not the final nail in the coffin
7:04	·	but as this is the only example we know
7:06	·	of that depicts the monster of Troy in
7:08	·	this manner we need to be very critical
7:11	·	of it and if it's Loosely drawn then how
7:13	·	seriously are we to take these features
7:16	·	this is where Julian Mong Nera a
7:20	·	professor of biology at the University
7:22	·	of Costa Rica comes into play in 2020 he
7:25	·	published a paper which basically took
7:27	·	Mayor Sam ethereum hypothesis
7:30	·	and tried to test it to the extent that
7:32	·	something like this can even really be
7:34	·	done in four different ways he conducted
7:37	·	a double blind test involving 78
7:39	·	biologists who compare the art on the
7:41	·	vessel with skulls of samum and various
7:45	·	other animals including some reptiles he
7:48	·	conducted an informed survey of 30
7:50	·	students to review the hypothesis he
7:52	·	conducted a computerized image analysis
7:55	·	and lastly he conducted a morphological
7:58	·	comparison so so essentially what he was
8:00	·	attempting to do here was gather a broad
8:02	·	range of data and opinions Adrien mayor
8:06	·	initially only spoke to seven
8:07	·	paleontologist in her paper while this
8:10	·	study dealt with 108 people in total
8:13	·	both biologists and students so 15 times
8:16	·	the initial amount and also ran through
8:19	·	computer
8:20	·	models so what did he find well the
8:24	·	result of each test rejected the S
8:26	·	theorum
8:27	·	hypothesis as disappointing as that may
8:29	·	be I will say I have a lot of respect
8:31	·	here for Adrian Mayer because she
8:33	·	cooperated wholeheartedly with this
8:35	·	study which is something that can be
8:37	·	very difficult to do given that the
8:38	·	findings basically took her idea and
8:40	·	rejected it anyway both the computer
8:43	·	models and the actual humans involved in
8:46	·	the study tended to choose another
8:48	·	animal as the model for the fossil if
8:50	·	that is indeed what this is what they
8:52	·	chose instead was a varanus A genus of
8:55	·	large carnivorous
8:57	·	lizard the example that many of you
8:59	·	watch watching this would probably be
9:00	·	familiar with is the Komodo dragon all
9:03	·	of that being said any attempt to figure
9:05	·	this out ultimately comes back to the
9:07	·	quality of the artwork and the fact that
9:10	·	this particular example of the monster
9:11	·	of Troy appears to be the only one of
9:14	·	its kind so despite the fossil
9:16	·	hypothesis being extremely interesting
9:19	·	and a fun problem to work with probably
9:21	·	the best answer to this question is that
9:24	·	if this is indeed a skull it either
9:26	·	belongs to some carnivorous lizard such
9:29	·	as something in the genus veranus as per
9:31	·	the most recent study or maybe a
9:34	·	crocodile skull which although they are
9:36	·	not native to Asia Minor I suppose would
9:39	·	not be entirely outside the realm of
9:41	·	possibility so what do you think is this
9:44	·	a classical depiction of a fossil
9:46	·	artistic license or something else
9:49	·	entirely