Shakespeare as a Christian Writer

Reformation 21 ^ | Leland Ryker

[Cronos]

“Since the Pope at the time only wanted the Bible in Latin”

Actually, that is a myth.

There were English language Bibles by Catholic sources and approved by the Pope well before Shakespeare: A great example of this is the Wessex Gospels(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wessex_Gospels) . This complete translation of the Four Gospels into Old English dates to around 990, when England was a thoroughly Catholic country.

Note that the Douay-Rheims (New Testament in 1582, Old Testament in 1609) was an English translation at the same time as Shakespeare (1564-1616)

Note that Wycliffe, Tyndale and Hus were NOT condemned for translating the Bible as such, but for more general crimes of heresy — part of which was expressed in how their Bibles were translated. For example: Martin Luther’s famous addition: Romans 3:28 says, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law,” (NKJV) but Luther translated it so that it would say “. . . by faith alone, apart from . . .” This sort of interpretive translation was what was frowned upon.

[Cronos]

Also note two points:

1. Shakespeare wrote plays for the common people so used the common person’s language.
2. People were multi-lingual at the time and people for millenia have reserved certain “language” for the sacred - right from the Akkadians/Amorites retaining Sumerian, through to Hindus retaining Sanskrit, Jews speaking Aramaic retaining Hebrew etc. We see it even today where may hold to KJV only.

[POGO163]

The pope had Tyndale choked to death and burned at the stake. When is it OK for one person to believe one think and die because someone else has a different view. Murder is forbidden in one of the 10 commandments. Yet the Pope ordered it. And heresy was just a cover story for justification. Who gave the pope the power to murder for heresy?

Were the Churches Paul started on his Missionary trips Catholic Churches? Not at all. So Catholics did not originate Christian churches...

[Cronos]

Your post #23 touches on a number of points, let's unpack them one by one

FIRST - your initial topic was "“Since the Pope at the time only wanted the Bible in Latin”

As I said above -> That is a Myth, the Douay-Rheims (New Testament in 1582, Old Testament in 1609) was an English translation at the same time as Shakespeare (1564-1616)

Do you agree with that?

[Cronos]

Your post #23 touches on a number of points, let's unpack them one by one

Second: Tyndale -- The Pope did NOT have "Tyndale choked to death and burned at the stake" - he was tried and sentenced to die by the Dutch secular authorities at the urging of Henry VIII (the founder of the Anglican church of England)

In 1530 Tyndale wrote The Practice of Prelates, bitterly attacking Henry VIII's attempt to obtain a papal annulment of his marriage to Catherine of Aragon.

Henry was furious and asked Emperor Charles V to arrest and extradite Tyndale to England. Charles demurred. Tyndale went to ground, but was betrayed by Henry Phillips and arrested in Antwerp in 1535.

Tyndale's crime was contradicting a tyrannical king—i.e., Henry VIII. Henry VIII wanted to be remarried and annul his previous marriage, but in 1530, Tyndale wrote The Practice of Prelates, a political tract opposing Henry VIII's political policies.

Henry VIII was never averse to a little decapitation or public execution of anyone who defied him.

[Cronos]

Your post #23 touches on a number of points, let's unpack them one by one

Third: Were the Churches Paul started on his Missionary trips Catholic Churches? -- Yes, yes they were

The first use of the term "Catholic Church" (literally meaning "universal church") was by the church father Saint Ignatius of Antioch (c. 50–140) in his Letter to the Smyrnaeans (circa 110 AD).

See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

The Churches that were founded by the Apostles had:

1. Bishops - who were successors of the apostles
2. Priests - presbyteroi --> who were ordained by bishops
3. Baptism of entire households - refer to Justin Martyr (c.166 AD), Clement of Rome (c. 75 AD), etc.
4. The Eucharist as the body and blood of Christ - again refer to Justin Martyr and to the DETRACTORS of Christianity who claimed that Christians were cannibals due to this
5. An organized church - as referenced by Paul's writing to the churches, as does Peter and John
6. A concept of the Bishop of Rome being the primus-inter-pares: first among equals among the bishops. refer to Ireneaus of Antioch (2nd century AD)

The Christian church was originated by Jesus at the Pentecost on 33 AD and that Church is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church - which includes the Catholic, the ORthodox, the Oriental (Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopian) and the Assyrian

This is also clearly evidenced in the Didache - a "manual for Christian living" written in around 54 AD which talks about the bishops, priests, baptism, eucharist, worship on the first day of the week

I would also suggest reading the writings of early Christians --> The Church history - written in around 300 AD - and That's just one of the many early Christian writers -- do read them, though I agree that it can be a bit overwhelming - so you can refer to the following two books to dip your toe in

If those two books are too much, then give me a few days and I will excerpt some references from the early Christians and write to you (with cross-references to where and when so you can double check)

[Winniesboy]

Improbably, (but predictably off-topic), I possess an early 17th century quarto-sized edition of the 1560 Geneva Bible, otherwise known as the ‘breeches bible’, which for a long time was was the most widely-used English translation. Notable among other things for its Calvinist-tending annotations, dislike of which was one of the main prompts for James I to commission his own 1611 ‘Authorised Version’.

[Cronos]

an early 17th century book - wow, how do preserve it? The oldest book I have dates to the late 19th century and it’s in pretty good nick

[Winniesboy]

Easier than you might think. We’re not talking here of something extremely rare and valuable - so many ‘Breeches’ copies were printed, and kept as the ‘family bible’ for generations, that there are still plenty of early editions around. So unless you’re striving for museum-quality conservation, it’s largely a matter of common sense. Don’t handle too often, but always with clean hands (preferably cotton or silk gloves) and keep it lying flat in a stable climate (not too many changes of temperature/humidity). Luckily I have climate control for my piano room (I’m a pianist) so keep it there.
The main challenge is preserving the leather-bound wooden covers and binding. The paper itself is of such high quality that there’s little or no deterioration if these precautions are taken.

[Cronos]

Thanks - and I find it interesting that you are a pianist. I’m an amateur pianist, but about 13 years ago we were lucky to be able to purchase an August Forster upright piano dating to 1892.

It has a lovely low tone compared to the tuning of modern pianos

[Cronos]

[Winniesboy]

Goodness, that beast certainly makes its presence felt. Still has its complete candle sconces, too...usually all that's left are the base plates screwed to the case. (I've always wondered how you managed to avoid getting candlewax all over the keyboard, not to mention setting your hair alight if you play with a lot of upper body movement...)

I have a 1929 Bosendorfer grand (one of the 'golden age' Bosendorfers) which I bought in 2004 after it had been fully restored - in Poland.

Particular skills were developed in Poland during the Warsaw Pact years when concert halls and conservatoires could no longer rely on technicians from Hamburg etc to maintain their Steinways and other top end pianos, and those skills have been retained in several specialist renovation companies. The dealer in Kent I bought it from specialised in period Bosendorfers, and always sent his acquisitions to the same Polish firm for restoration. Shortly after I'd bought mine a problem became apparent in the bridge/soundboard interface. So my dealer arranged for two guys from the Polish firm to drive all the way from Eastern Poland (can't remember exactly where, but I know it was near the border, so perhaps not far from your present neck of the woods) to pick up my piano here in Devon, take it back to Poland to replace the bridge, and bring it back again a few weeks later.

[Cronos]

we got ours restored in Kielce - but that isn’t in eastern Poland