Posted on 01/21/2023 11:41:19 AM PST by norsky
The Kremlin had 20,000 Poles shot in the head at Katyn to advance its political policies. Then lied about it for 50 years. Now the leader that did that is celebrated in Russia. There is no bottom to where Nazi Russia will go if allowed.
All this childish evasion because you were asked for a source.
Well, your post #80 was not addressed to me, but you asked me to read it.
I will respond to your comment, point-by-point.
“We all know war is uncertain and reliable information is sparse, so no one knows how the war in Ukraine will play out. Nor can any of us be completely certain what the optimal course of action is.”
This really doesn’t need any response, because it is a throw-away comment. In other words, there is no argument, no controversy. It’s akin to saying “Water is wet,” or “Fire is hot.”
“What I find especially striking is how liberal interventionists, unrepentant neoconservatives, and a handful of progressives who are all-in for Ukraine seem to have no doubts whatsoever about the origins of the conflict... For them, Putin is solely and totally responsible for the war.....”
Well, I can’t speak for “liberal interventionists,” because I am not one. Nor am I an “unrepentant neoconservative.” The term “neocon” was made popular by leftists in the 1960s to describe socially liberal Democrats who supported a robust foreign policy. By their logic, JFK was a neocon, as was Scoop Jackson; or, more recently, the late Zell Miller. I have never been a socially liberal Democrat so, again, your comment does not apply to me.
But I do support Ukraine’s right to defend itself against invasion by a bigger and stronger neighbor whose rationale for the invasion seems to change bi-weekly. To Russia, its invasion of Ukraine is ego; for Ukraine, the invasion is existential. And, yes; Putin is solely responsible for the war (which he began in 2014 when he invaded and illegally annexed Crimea). Ukraine posed no threat to Russia (and certainly no existential threat). Putin invaded Ukraine because he wanted its resources (the militarily strategic Crimea and the natural resources of eastern Ukraine).
Here is something for you to read:
https://www.businessinsider.com/putin-offered-to-partition-ukraine-with-poland-2014-10
That is an interesting article. It destroys the argument that Putin invaded Ukraine to keep NATO from Russia’s borders. As if it needed to be destroyed, because there were already five NATO countries on Russia’s borders. But, this is glaring, because it proposes a NATO country (Poland) actually taking over part of a country to its east, and closer to Russia then it was before; thus actually moving NATO further east and immediately adjacent to Russia.
“...The only outcome in their view is a complete Ukrainian victory, with a regime change in Moscow, the imposition of reparations to finance Ukrainian reconstruction, and war crimes trials for Putin and his associates.....This same group has also been extraordinarily critical of those who believe responsibility for the war is not confined to Russia’s president.”
Ukrainian victory, yes. And, aside from Biden, and his gaff several months ago, I am not aware of anyone actually calling for regime change in Russia; mainly because I think most people recognize Putin is likely on his last legs anyway. The imposition of reparations? I have never personally opined on that. But, given that it is Russia physically destroying Ukraine, and not the other way around, such a suggestion is not unusual. War crimes? That would be up to the international community.
“If you have the temerity to suggest that NATO enlargement (and the policies related to it) helped pave the road to war…”
So, then; why didn’t Russia invade Poland, or Lithuania, or Latvia, or Estonia, or Norway; all of whom are NATO countries and all of whom bordered Russia long before the invasion? What’s more, why did Putin seek to make a deal with one of them (Poland) to actually move further east toward Russia? And why hasn’t Russia invaded Finland, a country that shares an 800 mile long border with Russia, and is on the advent of becoming a NATO member? The fact is that Russia is not really fearful of NATO; but Russia very much wants the resources of Ukraine.
“…if you believe the most likely outcome is a negotiated settlement…”
Maybe, maybe not. But I suspect what you want to see in a “negotiated settlement” is Ukraine surrendering 30% of its territory and 80% of its natural resources to a belligerent bully who has said Ukraine is not even a legitimate country, and has no right to exist as one.
“…and that getting there sooner rather than later would be desirable…”
What is desirable is for Russia to pack up its duds and withdraw its forces from all of Ukraine, per 2013 national borders, and call it a day. Wouldn’t that be just? Wouldn’t that be fair? Did you forget that Russia is now claiming 30% of Ukraine as now being part of Russia? Did you forget that included in Russia’s demands is that Ukraine forfeit its sovereignty, and basically just do what Russia demands of it?
“…you’re almost certain to be denounced as a pro-Putin stooge, an appeaser, an isolationist, or worse...If someone is not all-in for Ukraine, then they must be siding with Putin.”
Listen to you! In your very own words, you label others, “liberal interventionists, unrepentant neoconservatives, and a handful of progressives who are all-in for Ukraine.” And yet, you get the vapors if someone calls you a “pro-Putin stooge, an appeaser, an isolationist, or worse.”
If you wish to have an informed discussion, count me in. But leave out the emotional name-calling — aside from pro-Russia or pro-Ukraine, as those are non-judgmentally descriptive — as it advances nothing.
“When Vlad wins, the US dominance in the world is over, as we are currently witnessing.”
Which you sound like you would applaud.
LOL! What utter doggerel. The Polish people all over the internet contradict this nonsense.
And the site Redacted is a RuSSian shill.
You’re sooooo riiiiiight. PUtler, the starter and supporter of this war, is evil.
And so are his supporting goons here.
Totally ridiculous remark.
“Right niw,the Neocons are in Russia.”
They were kicked out when Putin got rid of the NGOs. But they still TOTALLY INFEST Ukraine and many other countries.
Parts of Poland weren’t a part of anti-Hitler deal.
What the hell you Q nutjobs are going to come up with next ? There are Ukes all over the place in Poland. There are millions of them. Everyone see them each and every day.
And remember that Britain and France were trying to woo Russia, before Russian signed with Hitler. The reason? Britain and France said “no” to Russia getting half of Poland in return.
No. The Soviets did not ask the British and French for Polish territory. They only asked to enter Polish territory to fight Germany. The Poles refused Soviets on their land and Hitler swooped in with a better offer.
I see that you can’t handle the truth. We can always start another war when this one fails. Then same arguments all over again.
Yup, all Poles agree with you. Now that we have some social media beyond the grip of controlled media, we see that it is not true.
“I see that you can’t handle the truth.”
So exactly what... ?
Just like that “truth” in points.
just giving you the same crap back atchya
So what is that “truth” I can't handle ?
.....
It wasn't garbage, it was a Polish journalist in Poland discussing the social media there that that many do not support the war. All the links are on the video that was sent. The US reporter was a Fox news reporter. So get over your inability to understand that.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.