Posted on 11/08/2022 5:35:14 AM PST by Raycpa
Jesus answered, “You would have no authority over Me at all if it had not been given to you from above
John 19:11
Yes.
If cheating happens,I guess the the conditions setting up the book of Revelation had to happen somehow.
Pray continuously today for election integrity and that God will impress His people and those who need to know Him to do the right thing.
At the end of last Sundays message our pastor reminded the congregation of who put these people in charge and related it directly back to scripture.
It’s a hard thing to swallow but absolutely correct.
If anyone would like the link to the message please let me know.
Yep. How do you think Trump won in 2016. For all we know, it’s quite possible that we needed to happen in 2020 what happened. Just like it’s possible the world needed Hitler to win in 1933. The Lord is a long game player.
Look at Revelation 13 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2013&version=NIV.
Verses 1-5 say to follow the laws of governing authorities. It may be tempted to think this is talking about religious laws, since prior in Romans Paul discusses a lot of Jewish law vs grace from the blood of Jesus. But verses 6-7 say "this is also why you pay taxes...". That suggests the context of following the governing authorities is about man-made laws and leaders.
Yet, verses 8-10 seem to make it sound again like it's talking about God's laws: Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
My summary of that is to follow the laws of man too because if God wants our leaders out of power He'll make it so (typed in my best Picard voice). But when following laws we should put special importance on following the law of love, doing so will make us automatically follow God's laws on how to treat others.
So yes, obey our worldly leaders even if put there by cheat, but do so with an attitude of being Christian first, subjects of Brandon second.
Oops, I meant Romans 13, not Revelation 13.
Yes please.
I hear what you're saying. On this accounting, the core assertion of the Declaration of Independence -- i.e., "... that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it ...." -- is presumably invalid, and the American Revolution was unjustified. From a biblical perspective (e.g., Romans 13:1-7), that is.
Correct?
Great responses. I trust that many Freepers need encouragement that God is sovereign.
God tends to lose every battle and win the war anyway. It’s excruciating for believers since we can only know the moment and won’t know the outcome in this life.
In Revelation 6, the believers are under the altar, having been executed, and are still told to wait because more are going to be murdered.
Keep in mind that the Russians were under the boot of communism for seventy years, and what they have now is no bed of roses, so the pollyanna view of history is more often than not a delusion.
God is the king maker. He sets them up and tears them down according to his will and for his purposes. What was the purpose of Obama and now Biden? Perhaps to wake the nation up to the evil that is so blatantly preva.ent in the liberal party so that the nation kicks them out of office for decades to come until they recognize their sins and repent?
Is the “pendulum swi going back to the right”? Let’s hope so for the sake of the nation.
I respectfully disagree. The founding fathers were part of the process (God's process) of getting the American government in power. Likewise today, we the people should pursue a just government, even fight if necessary, but peacefully if possible. But don't despair at times we're unsuccessful, because in the end it performs God's will. So the Jan 6 protestors protesting the cheat are in the right and we should support them, but don't let the God-denying Dims get us so down spiritually at times the Dims have the upper hand that we don't obey the man-made laws (at least the ones that don't blatantly contradict God's laws).
Yes.
God has allowed other godless rulers to rise to power for His own purposes.
Think Pharoah.
Agreed.
With respect, I don't understand that at all. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but your position seems to reduce to, "whatever happens is something that reflects God's will, so the colonial rebellion against the existing sovereignty of the British monarch is not inconsistent with the Apostle Paul's statements in Romans 13:1-7." That strikes me as all but tautological. While everything that happens may ultimately reflect God's sovereign will, much that does happen merely reflects God's permissive will and does not necessarily receive God's approbation.
Paul writes:
"Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."
Romans 13:1-2.
Seems pretty straightforward to me: As relevant here, the "authorit[y] that exist[ed]" at the time of the American Revolution was the British crown, which "authority" was (according to this reading of Romans 13-17, at least) "established by God," and to whom the American colonists owed their sovereign allegiance as a political matter. Indeed, in this respect, the very purpose of the Declaration of Independence was to explain why, in the view of the American states then declaring their independence, they no longer owed allegiance to the British crown. In so explaining, the Declaration drew on Enlightenment principles, not biblical principles.
How this can be reconciled with what I take to be your view of Romans 13:1-7 escapes me. It seems you want it both ways, which, as a hermeneutical matter, strikes me as a bit iffy.
I think we're discussing two things simultaneously, but without delineating between the two and, thus, the two topics get conflated.
1) Should I respect the authorities in charge (and respect their laws) with the knowledge that God either put them there are allowed them to be there, and
2) Is it right for me as a Christian to be part of the process of making sure the right people are in charge and are making the right laws?
For that, I'll use the founding fathers and the American Revolution as an example and the authority they had over them (English throne, King George III). How did George III himself become king? He assumed the throne when his grandfather passed, but how did that line of kings come to power all the way back beginning with King Egbert? If Romans 13 tells us it was God's will for King Egbert of Wessex to unite England by defeating King Beornwulf of Mercia in battle and for his line of kings to still be in charge in 18th century British controlled America, is it such a stretch to believe it was also God's will for Americans to yell for just causes like "no taxation without representation" and lay their lives on the line to make their form of government a reality?
So be part of #2 and do your part of God's will to make the government right, but also be part of #1 and follow the laws in place even if you can't implement #2 in your timeframe.
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