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To: Manuel OKelley
"the effectiveness of shotguns for personal defense is largely urban legend"

Says who? A 12 gauge 8-shot magazine shotgun loaded with 00 Buck carries 9 soft lead 9mm balls in each round. 8 rounds equals 72 9mm slugs per load.

A 9mm submachinegun carries at most 30 rounds per magazine and it can be emptied quickly, but unless you hold it very firmly and keep the bursts short, most rounds after the first one go above the target. Once the magazines are empty, it takes a while in someplace safe to reload those magazine. A shotgun can be reloaded in between shots, with a round in the chamber.

Best of all, shotguns can use a variety of ammunition from no. 9 birdshot (very useful indoors, since it won't penetrate walls and kill your neighbor) to No. 1 buck and slugs - and the rare FRAG-12 grenades.

So, what's this about "urban legends"? Try to convince a guy who's used them in combat.

41 posted on 07/21/2022 7:38:46 AM PDT by Chainmail (Harrassment, to be effective, must be continuous.)
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To: Chainmail

“So, what’s this about “urban legends”? Try to convince a guy who’s used them in combat.”

I’m 100% with you on that.


48 posted on 07/21/2022 8:01:54 AM PDT by DesertRhino (Dogs are called man's best friend. Moslems hate dogs. Add it up..)
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To: Chainmail

not 72 9 mm slugs-—72 round balls that are probably only goign to inpact 8 targets

Obviously a 12 loaded with buckshot it going to have a dramatic effect but personally I prefer a more maneuverable double stack pistol that operates far faster than a pump shotgun.

as far as birdshot—nasty wounds but little penetration and I’m not going for deterrent value—purely terminating threat value.

In the event I was suspecting real trouble there are AR’s for that but the thought of touching one off indoors without hearing protection is somewhat off-putting

Each person should do what is best for them (I’ve decades of heavy practice and point shoot extremely well so it’s different for me)—this was mostly targeted at the people who think they are goign to hit everything on the other side of the room when in reality you’ve probably got a 3-6” diameter impact circle in a typical room at very best.


59 posted on 07/21/2022 9:13:13 AM PDT by Manuel OKelley
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To: Chainmail

>So, what’s this about “urban legends”?

His reply was to my post which expressed doubt about the original video claiming a Model 97 (12 ga, 20.5” barrel) pump shotgun was killing 3 soldiers per shot.

I would agree that there is an urban legend from movies and such that shotguns don’t need to be aimed or that they project a cone of death.

In my note I linked one of many shot spread articles — this one testing an 18.5 open choke at 40 yards, and still the buck was inside one person-width.

So: only one guy, not 3 ... but nobody sane wants 9 .35 caliber simultaneous wounds.


77 posted on 07/21/2022 12:12:00 PM PDT by No.6
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To: Chainmail

I know several marines who carried the 12 ga in VN.


81 posted on 07/21/2022 5:33:13 PM PDT by 5inch38gunner
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