Posted on 12/27/2021 12:31:40 PM PST by Red Badger
See 117 for the problems they need to solve to have a viable vehicle for the general case...
Now as for the “problem” that an EV is trying to solve vs a combustion engine, that’s a whole different discussion.
First go to answer is “pollution” but this is dubious, as the production and lifetime impact of an electric vehicle is actually more damaging in many ways than a combustion vehicle. The one area it does win is exhaust from the vehicle itself, but this is dubious on a few levels. Trading tailpipe emissions for power plant emissions doesn’t really gain you a reductions... to power every car as an EV you would need 30% more electricity produced than you do today, and combustions i s how the majority of electricity is produced.
Secondly electric cars double the amount of OZONE produced per mile vs combustion vehicles... and do so at the ground level, which is where OZONE is harmful.. You think that OZONE haze over LA is bad now, it would DOUBLE if everyone were driving an electric vehicle.
One thing electric will do, is give far more control away. Unless you have a way to generate electricity on your own, you are completely beholden to the reliability and availability of the power grid. Gasoline is portable, and easily storable... electricity is not.
ALl you need is a container. Electricity, not so much. Solar panel could I suppose solar trickle charge you in a natural disaster situation given enough time, but not as simple as pull out the gas can in your garage/shed and fuel up to get where you need to go... obviously a longer term situation, access to gasoline can become problematic as well.. and even trickle charge would be better than no gas.
But the claim is pollution mainly, or the end of hydrocarbons if you buy into the belief they are finite. However the latter argument is dubious since overwhelming majority of electricity is created using them as well.
I see big business in Connector adapters.
LOL, looks like when I travel to Europe and I have to have all of those plug adapters.
Charging stations are not anywhere near where they would need to be to be viable for everyone to have a vehicle.
Do you have any clue how many gas stations are in the US? Let alone actual gas pumps? A typical vehicle fully refuels at a gas pump in 5 minutes or less... even a RAPID CHARGE TESLA takes 15 minutes and only gets you 2/3 of a your range at best.
150k gas stations in the US approximately, with 8-16 pumps each is 1.2million to 2.4 million pumps. All capable of refueling a vehicle in around 5 minutes or less on average.
a couple of plugs showing up in your mall parking lot or at a fast food restaurant that take 10 hours to charge a vehicle fully is comical.
Just because your local mall or parking garage put in a few charging stations and made sure you can see them to virtue signal does not mean the infrastructure is anywhere near where it needs to be for EV to be the main vehicle.
Yes, you can charge your car at home, but you can’t do that on the road. For commuting sure, no problem, for actual distance travel, nope. Hell next time you travel, actually stop at a service plaza or station along a busy highway.
Just spend 30 minutes and count the number of vehicles that refuel. Now imagine each and every one of them needed HOURS to do so, and figure out how many stations that plaza would need to service the same number of vehicles? Even if you assumed a large segment of those refueling were just commuters, who could charge at home and not need that gas station you will rapidly start to understand the enormity of the charging station issue...
A couple of spots in your LEET CERTIFIED PARKING GARAGE at work and in your local fast food parking lot aren’t going to cut it... not even close.
Even when just driving around on your own property, small solar panels provide little power. In Michigan where I live, considering available daytime sunlight, cloudiness, and sun angle, etc., solar cells produce only an average of 5% of their rated Watts on an annual basis. A 50 Watt panel would get you 50*24*.05 = 60 Watt-hours per day. A typical lead-acid battery loses about 5% of its 700 Watt-hour capacity per week just sitting without use. This is about 35 Watt-hours per day. A 50 Watt panel wouldn’t even keep two such batteries from self-discharging even if they were not used at all.
Did your friend tell you how long it took to recharge after he drove on a long trip? In other words, take a 1000 mile trip. 4 stops for charges would take how long for each charge? I can’t get a straight answer from anyone. Maybe electrics would be OK for ‘around town’, but long trips would still be better with gasoline.
Here is what I have found out from one article:
Which Really Costs More: Charging an EV or Filling Up Your Tank With Gas? https://finance.yahoo.com/news/really-costs-more-charging-ev-232722262.html
20 hours for a slow charge from a level 1 charger that costs $600? Does that sound reasonable?
My Tesla pals gloat over the fact that they spend nothing per year on oil changes, tuneups, or really anything except for tires and getting their cars washed. And windshield wipers.
There’s just not a lot that needs any maintenance and a fraction of the parts that an ICE auto has. Teslas “phone home” on a daily basis and Tesla will know if something is failing before you do. They will tell you that they want to come out to your house and fix something.
Car and driver included maintenance but not battery replacement. They also didn’t include installation of a charging station in your (needed) garage or car port. That adds another $2,000 to the ticket. My Camry will last at least 20 years and a couple hundred thousand miles without major repairs as long as I change the oil every 5,000 miles or so. Tesla still uses tires, brakes and suspension plus all of the electric wiring, switches and connectors.
My last Camry (1997) had no engine or transmission issues in its 20 year life. I did shocks and struts once and brake pads twice in 200,000 miles. I also replaced the serpentine belt once. Then I sold it for $3,000 and got a used 1 year old model with 40K for $15,000.
Even the easiest comparison shows that the annual cost of EV is substantially greater than the similar gas model. When you add in end of life costs and shorter life, the gap gets even larger.
Until the range and recharge time (and battery replacement cost) problems are solved, EV cars will remain urban short range vehicles for people with garages and disposable income. Your friends are correct in some ways. There is less maintenance, but the current level of required maintenance for current gasoline models isn’t much more. Other than oil changes, they are about the same.
Plus... They occasionally burn down your garage, but I guess a gasoline model can do the same.
“20 hours for a slow charge from a level 1 charger that costs $600? Does that sound reasonable?”
My Tesla friends have 220v systems in their garages. Level 2. They charge at night and it certainly isn’t taking 20 hours. They also use chargers at shopping centers and at their jobs. 20 minutes gets them 150-200 miles of added range. Two of these guys have been driving Teslas for 7 years and I’ve never heard them complain about charging being a problem.
One of our group leased a Toyota Mirai, powered by a fuel cell. She constantly complained about the lack of available fueling. A great car, high performance, but a real problem finding places to gas up.
“Even the easiest comparison shows that the annual cost of EV is substantially greater than the similar gas model.”
That hasn’t been the experience of my Tesla pals. And two of them have had seven years to judge from. Both are now on their second Model S. Their expenses are tires and keeping the cars cleaned. The cars have dynamic braking, the motor becomes a generator, brake pads don’t wear down. Wiring doesn’t require any maintenance. Tesla came out and replaced the door handles on one of their cars for free.
“Did your friend tell you how long it took to recharge after he drove on a long trip? “
40 minutes at a supercharger gave him 100%. 300+ miles.
Tesla has superchargers spaced about 150 miles apart. Takes you 15-20 minutes to add 150 miles so that you can hop to the next charge station if you want.
My ten year old Camry is worth about a third of the purchase price. My depreciation over 10 years is 2/3 of the original cost which is about $25K less than the original cost of a Tesla. The value of a 10 year old Tesla with the original battery is very little. So my depreciation cost is about $15,000 over 10 years or about $1,500 per year. I would hazard a guess that the difference in depreciation will fund the difference in ongoing energy costs and yield a nice bonus plus I invested the price differential and have reaped the interest earned over 10 years.
Your friends bought relatively trouble free cars, which reinforces their cognitive dissonance about paying a huge premium, but they are deluding themselves if they think they are saving money.
” but they are deluding themselves if they think they are saving money”
Saving money isn’t something these two worry about. They’d have a hard time spending what they have.
That’s what I figured. For me, I’ll stick to year olld fleet cars. The dealer that sold me my 2019 Grand Caravan for $15,900 offered me $21k to sell it back to him last week. I’m guessing that’s a very short term situation, but Dodge stopped making them and I’m keeping it.
I drive a 1985 and a 2003. I figure they are almost fully broken in now and ready for some serious mileage.
I’d be fine with buying a Tesla. I’ve had the chance to see them up close for years. I used to enjoy driving but not so much anymore. Full self driving is much closer than people realize. I watched one, empty, thread through a large parking lot and pick up its owners the other day.
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