However, I do tire of the anti-hydrogen articles.
Yes, hydrogen production is not free (and not clean if we take it from hydrocarbons). But in general, it is still a ideal transport fuel in terms of user friendliness.
#1: The tanks for cars that can hold gigajoules of hydrogen, vent VERY rapidly. You’re car may in fact have a flare of hydrogen if the tank is punctured, but it will be a rapid flare, maybe 2 seconds max. A lithium ion battery fire lasts HOURS. The amount of hydrogen in a car would not be eventful at FULL RELEASE. Everybody is thinking Hindenberg, when it will merely be a small/short fizzle.
#2: Energy to produce is the next big fallacy. I literally see no comparison of the cost of hydrogen separation by electrolysis or from hydrocarbons, to the cost to extract/refine/turn into battery of the rare items that go into Lithium ion batteries. Which leads me to believe Lithium Ion wouldn’t look so good.
#3: A big healthy nuclear power sector, and lots of solar panels, you can produce hydrogen and store it as a battery of sorts. Because battery manufacturers are so tight lipped about energy consumption in the production of lithium ion batteries, I don’t have numbers to compare efficiencies. But given the simplicity of hydrogen and hydrogen fuel cells, I am willing to bet 100$ that hydrogen wins.
#4: Fillup will be a LOT quicker than a Lithium Ion battery.
#5: For nostalgia types like me, we can burn it in our piston engines, not very efficiently, compared to hydrogen “burned” in a fuel cell, but still....
This is a useful reply. Clearly hydrogen is not what I would call a fuel; more an energy storage system (and a lightweight one at that, even lighter than lithium). Generating hydrogen from water may require electricity but there are some promising catalysts for generating hydrogen from water using sunlight directly, not using electricity.
There are storage issues and some add weight to the issue, and distribution, like any new approac is a big undertaking. A fuel cell would seem to be superior to combustion as a long term approach.
But as a libertarian who has plenty of solar in large part to decouple me from my energy costs being prey to whatever whims the federal govt, state govt, or their cronies have in mind (and the absolute worst ones are the ones doing it under the auspices of saving the planet), I'm very much interested in hydrogen storage. About 1/4th of my power consumption comes from the grid, with the rest coming from solar. If I have a means to store my excess power for long term, like I'm hoping to do with electrolysis, and if I can do it safely, like I'm hoping with future hydrogen storage options similar to the Lavo system sold in Australia, I'll go off the grid living comfortably in my two-story home using plenty of A/C to counter the hot southern summer.
I kind of enjoy the anti-hydrogen articles, as many people have been mislead as to the viability of hydrogen as a “fuel.” I thought that the hydrogen craze had been tamped down for good, but it keeps making a comeback.
You are likely correct that hydrogen could beat lithium-ion as a storage medium; however, hydrogen is anything but “user-friendly.” Storage and dispensing will always be a serious problem.
Years ago, I visited a large transit agency that was experimenting with a couple of hydrogen buses. They spent millions on the buses and a dispensing facility to fuel them. In order to store enough gas to fuel a bus, it had to be compressed to 10,000 PSI ! Any leaks resulted in spontaneous combustion - with an invisible flame!
The buses cost several times more per mile to operate than a conventional diesel bus, and they were fraught with problems. They were never placed into regular service and the agency eventually abandoned the program.
The public will never accept vehicles that run on compressed hydrogen. As someone who has witnesses the accidental release of compressed natural gas (only 3,600 PSI) believe me - a hydrogen release is going to be more than a small/short fizzle!
Fuel cells, maybe - but as with all “alternatively fueled” vehicles, we’re again applying an extremely expensive and comnplex solution to a simple problem (transportation).
As a matter of fact, hydrogen has rather low energy content, if molls are concerned. The only advantage of hydrogen is that it is light.
Well, known fact, the hydrogen is the lightest element in universe.
What does it means in practice that one needs extreme pressures to store hydrogen.
The same energy contained in e.g. propane need about 4x pressure in hydrogen.
Yah, do note the difference from the Hindenburg. That was a tremendous bag of gas. A car could hold only a small amount which will burn off in seconds. Unlike gasoline, it dissipates quickly, which quickly decreases the combustible mixture. This would not be like a cooking gas blowup inna house — where the combustible mixture can hang around until someone flips a light switch and you get a spark. Hydrogen is terribly difficult to keep in one place — which is another problem for later.
The oceans are loaded with lithium. More than humanity could ever use. The Saudis have figured out a way to get at it with high efficiency and low cost. The byproducts of it’s extraction are hydrogen and chlorine gases both of which are more valuable than the lithium itself.
https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2021-06/kauo-ech060321.php
The actual science for those capable of understanding it.
https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2021/ee/d1ee00354b
“The researchers estimate that the cell would need only US$5 of electricity to extract 1 kilogram of lithium from seawater. The value of hydrogen and chlorine produced by the cell would more than offset this cost, and residual seawater could also be used in desalination plants to provide freshwater.”
UT Austin one of my Alma Mater’s has commercialized this process now I personally as a Hydrogeologist have worked with the beta units of this tech.
https://news.utexas.edu/2018/02/09/new-lithium-collection-method-could-boost-global-supply/
“Produced water from shale gas fields in Texas is rich in lithium. Advanced separation materials concepts such as ours could potentially turn this waste stream into a resource recovery opportunity,” Freeman said.
Each well in the Barnett and Eagle Ford can generate up to 300,000 gallons of produced water per week. Using their new process, Freeman and his team conservatively estimate that from just one week’s worth of produced water, enough lithium can be recovered to power 200 electric cars or 1.6 million smartphones.”
There are over 100,000 active wells in the Permian basin alone every one of them produces burned in a avg six to one water to oil basis. Those wells are as rich or richer in lithium chloride as the Barnett or Eagleford I also have worked both those basins as well.
Tesla and their Chinese partner’s have already crossed the $100 a kWh for LiCoMg chemistry and $80 kwh for LiFePO4 and the iron phosphate cells are the million mile rated ones. 4000 full depth of discharge cycles with 330 miles range is well over a million miles. That 4000 cycles is to 80% capacity those cells will still do another 4000 cycles down to 50% as second life in a power wall somewhere. A 60kWh pack in second life as a power wall will store 40 to 30 kWh for another 4000 cycles. 30kWh is three days for the avg European home and a two nights for the avg American home.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-tesla-batteries-exclusive-idUSKBN22Q1WC
The new massive gigafactory in Austin Texas will be using UT Austins LiFePO4 cell tech to make cells under $100kwh for The American market some time next year. If you are near Austin drive by it truly impressive in size it’s five decks of production shape over an area in the square mile size range. Massive is an understatement.
The simple fact is the age of lithium is here there is no stopping it. Luddites gonna lude but they are powerless to stop the move into the 21st century. Audi VW and BMW are all ending thier internal combustion engine lines by 2030 or sooner. $80 kwh kills the ICE engine in every way economically.
I have paid for solar panels on my roof I leased as Tesla model S for a year. My charge cost via grid power would have been 7 cents kWh, I have a years data in Texas heat and traffic in urban driving that S got 4 to 4.5 miles to the kWh. Motorway at 80 freedom units was 3.2 to 3.5 miles to the kWh. I used it to commute 20 miles round trip.per day in bumper to bumper grid lock something a Tesla excels at with regen. 4 miles to a 7 cent kWh is the equivalent to 1.75 cents per mile. Gasoline today is $2.8 gal a model S sized sedan would be lucky to get 30 mph in grid lock but well use that. 2.80/30= is 9.3 cents per mile. For a 30 mpg ICE car to equal 1.75 cents per mile gasoline would need to cost 52.5 cents per gallon. Put another way that Tesla on commercial power was like paying 52 cents per gallon of fuel. Since my panels payed themselves off already in under 5 years I drove that Tesla for free in fuel costs, not counting the loss of the sellable power to the grid. It worked out better economical for me to sell my solar power during the day to ERCOT and then buy back off peak power at night to charge at 3.6 cents per kWh so in real terms that Tesla was running on the equivalent of 27 cents per gallon of gasoline the math is easy. 3.6/9= 0.9 cents per mile. 0.9 cents per mile times 30mpg = 27 cents to equal the same 0.9 cents per mile. My lease cost on that Tesla was less than the last lease I had for a luxury Volvo so it’s moot on the capital investment cost It was already less than my prior luxury car.
Like I said the age of lithium is here.