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To: Mr Rogers
You just gave us two interpretations ruled by your preferences, that cast the two words in a bad light, and contrary the the Scriptural context in which they are translated as "church" and "bishop".

The word ekklesia does NOT refer to a riot, to an irregular one-time lawless mob adventitiously gathering. In Acts 19 the local Ephesian silversmiths had been summoned (called out) by one of their prominent artisans, albeit unauthorixed to do so, but it was for a purpose: to consider an imminent threat to their means of living. However, without a ruling elder, it degenerated into a riotous uncontrolled mob scene. Upon the arrival of the second-highest government official the crowd became stilled and came to order, whence the official took control. He referred personal issues to the courts, and that discussion of guild issues to an assembly of lawfully summoned parties.

The wod ekklesia translated "church" in 1611 was entirely appropriate, where ekklesia is an adjectivial use of the participle of the verb "to call out by summons" to describe the group identified as "The Called-Out (Ones)" or "Summoned Ones" who in the Christian culture represent the local constituents of the group that is by mutual agreement summoned to congregate for worship iin the breaking of bread, prayer, instruction in the doctrine of the Apostles, and/or dealing with practical communal affairs. The regularly established meetings/gatherings of the church members are usually moderated by mature reliable spiritual elders, one of whom may be the ruling episcopos/bishop/bearer of the Sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God, rightfully asseverated for the application of doctrine, for reproval ofimmature behavior, for correction of errors arising from misapplication of or disobedience to the Word, and for practical training of congregants in progressive holiness.

According to Marvin Vinent in his "Word Studies":

The office of a bishop (ἐπισκοπῆς)

Ἑπίσκοπος superintendent, overseer, by Paul only in Phi_1:1. The fundamental idea of the sword is overseeing. The term ἐπίσκοπος was not furnished by the gospel tradition: it did not come from the Jewish synagogue, and it does not appear in Paul's lists of those whom God has set in the church (1Co_12:28; Eph_4:11). Its adoption came about in a natural way. Just as senatus, γερουσία and πρεσβύτερος passed into official designations through the natural association of authority with age, so ἐπίσκοπος would be, almost inevitably, the designation of a superintendent. This process of natural selection was probably aided by the familiar use of the title In the clubs and guilds to designate functions analogous to those of the ecclesiastical administrator. The title can hardly be traced to the O.T. There are but two passages in lxx where the word has any connection with religious worship, Num_4:16; 2Ki_11:18. It is applied to God (Job_20:29), and in N.T. to Christ (1Pe_2:25). It is used of officers in the army and of overseers of workmen. The prevailing O.T. sense of ἐπισκοπὴ is visitation for punishment, inquisition, or numbering.
I believe your treatment is colored by your desire to set aside the difference between the task of translation versus the burden of finding meaning to the translation, which is the interpretation of it, succeeded by the practical exercise of applying it. Whatever uninspired and fallible humans have done bu creating a supra-church episcopacy, and wedding that external demonic structure to the state thus contaminating the terms "church" and "bishop"--that is noy a translational error, it is a method o using the terms in a sort of double-speak undermining of the New Testament use of thm.
110 posted on 05/01/2020 9:23:33 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: imardmd1

“I believe your treatment is colored by your desire to set aside the difference between the task of translation versus the burden of finding meaning to the translation...”

Actually, KING JAMES ordered the translators to take that approach, and based it, as he said, on “No Bishop. No King.” That is a matter of historical record. If they were going to translate, they would do so in a way that supported the divine right of kings. Per King James.

In Acts 19, “It began with Demetrius, a silversmith who had a large business manufacturing silver shrines of the Greek goddess Artemis. He kept many craftsmen busy. 25 He called them together...” It turned into a riot, but it started as simply a MEETING. An assembly of people. Which is all the word means.

But King James needed it to be a hierarchical structure, which is what “church” meant in the 1600s. So he rejected using “congregation” as Tyndale had because it would fit his political purposes.

NOTHING to do with translating. Pure politics.


116 posted on 05/02/2020 6:32:09 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools)
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