The Marine Corps' top general explains his decision to ban Confederate flag displays on bases

Business Insider ^ | April 23, 2020 | Gina Harkins

[jmacusa]

They put a different one up on Mt. Surabachi. The one they swore an oath to defend. The one our men and women are defending at this hour. Not that treasonous rag.

[jmacusa]

16 slaves were freed in NJ in 1865 as per the 13th. Amendment. John Basilone lived in Rahway NJ. Should his legacy be banned?

[jmacusa]

What if the South had won the war? What kind of a nation would we be today? What would America be like? If the South had won, would they have freed the slaves?

[Bull Snipe]

“Confederate Soldiers Are Considered U.S. Veterans Under Federal Law-”

No, they are not considered U.S. Veterans. The Government will provide them a head stone for an unmarked Confederate soldiers grave. But that headstone is not the headstone of a U.S. Veteran.
It is the head stone of a veteran of the Confederate Armed Service.
In 1958 Congress authorized the payments of a Federal pension to widows of veterans of the Confederate Army or Navy. It also authorized payment of pensions to Veterans of the Confederate Army or Navy. That was a feel good move. At that time there was only one man, living, that claimed to have served in the Confederate Army.
No where did the Congress of the United States ever enact a law that said Confederate Veterans are U.S. Veterans.

[BroJoeK]

golux: "The last slaves in the United States were freed in New Jersey.
The Emancipation Proclamation only freed southern slaves, and this after there were no Southerners in congress."

jmacusa: "16 slaves were freed in NJ in 1865 as per the 13th. Amendment."

Like some other Northern states earlier, New Jersey began gradual abolition in 1804, when its slave population was about 12,000 and freed-blacks 4,000.
So NJ's 1860 census showed only 18 slaves and now 25,000 freed-blacks.

In the meantime, Northern slave states of Maryland, West Virginia and Missouri abolished slavery on their own in 1864, but Delaware & Kentucky, with very few slaves remaining, still refused abolition until ratification of the 13th Amendment.

So, of the ~4 million US slaves in 1860, by the end of 1865 those still remaining to be freed by the 13th amendment were:

1. maybe 16 in New Jersey
2. about 1,800 in Delaware
3. perhaps 25,000 in Kentucky.
4. small numbers in US territories like Oklahoma & New Mexico.

All the others had already been freed -- or freed themselves -- by one or the other of:

• Union Army Contraband policies.
• Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation.
• New state constitutions (i.e., Maryland & Missouri)
• In Kentucky it's said that 90% of slaves had already been released by their "masters" or had simply walked away.

[Retain Mike]

No. You are wrong. I explained that. Yours is a distension without any meaning.

[Bull Snipe]

You are wrong. Show me the U.S. law that makes Confederate Veterans U.S. Veterans.

[Bull Snipe]

You forgot one category of slaves that had to wait until the 13th Amendment to be ratified. These were the slaves that were within Union Army territory, captured from the Confederacy, before January 1 1863. These slaves were exempt in the Emancipation Proclamation. This included slaves in 13 Parishes of Louisiana, Tidewater Virginia, Sections of coastal North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, and a large section of Tennessee. The total number is unknown, but at least equals and most probably exceeds the total of slaves in your categories 1-4

[BroJoeK]

higgmeister: "My paternal Great Grandfather mustered out as a brevet Captain of the 29th Alabama Infantry Regiment."

The 29th Alabama was on the Confederate left at Nashville, under Stewart.
One of my ancestors served under "Whiskey" Smith on the Union right -- the 119th Illinois Volunteers.
In 1862 they were a pretty sad-sack outfit, humiliated by Forrest near Memphis.
But by Nashville in 1864, they were as capable as any, and helped drive Stewart & Cheatham from the field.

I have no problem with the Confederate flag -- here in central PA you can see it flying from houses in small villages, usually beside the US Flag.
As for Marines, what can I say?
While Marines fought on Iwo Jima, my Dad's division fought under MacArthur in the Philippines -- by July was one of 11 Army divisions planned to join three marine divisions in Operation Olympic -- thankfully cancelled.

Here's what's astonishing to me -- women infantry, LGBTQ, you name it social pathologies: those are not detrimental to unit cohesion, but a Confederate flag?

Go figure.

[BroJoeK]

Bull Snipe: "You forgot one category of slaves that had to wait until the 13th Amendment to be ratified.
These were the slaves that were within Union Army territory, captured from the Confederacy, before January 1 1863..."

Well... the 1860 census showed Kentucky with about 250,000 slaves, of whom it's said maybe 90% had already been freed, or had freed themselves de facto, by December 1865.
My guess is the same is true in regions you mention here -- for examples: 25,000 Louisiana blacks enlisted as Union colored troops, 20,000 more from Tennessee and 5,000 from North Carolina.
And for every enlistee there would be several more employed in Union service jobs, suggesting that many who wanted their freedom could find it.

I've never seen a report of fugitive slaves being returned to their Union slaveholders by the Union army -- not saying it didn't happen, only that I've never seen it reported.

[Bull Snipe]

All well and good, but that does not change the legal status as a slave in those territories. That was changed by the 13the Amendment.

[higgmeister]

It could be pointed out that the United States of America existed as a slave nation for eighty seven years and the Confederate States of America only existed for four and a half years.

John Brown the abolitionist was captured by U.S. Marines under the command of First Lieutenant Israel Greene, USMC, with Colonel Robert E. Lee of the United States Army in overall command and then tried and hanged for insurrection.

Pointing fingers is not a very sure way to present arguments especially when "Jim Crow laws" were created by the Racial Supremacy Democrat Party who now claims to be the Black American's greatest friend.

[BroJoeK]

higgmeister: "It could be pointed out that the United States of America existed as a slave nation for eighty seven years and the Confederate States of America only existed for four and a half years."

Well... if we count the United States as first forming on July 4, 1776 and if we believe our Founders meant what they said, "that all men are created equal...", then we can easily say the USA was anti-slavery from its inception, at least in theory.
In practice, by the time of the 1787 Constitution ratification, five states plus Vermont and six Northwest Territories (Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin) had already begun to abolish slavery and two more (NY & NJ) would soon do so.
Further, all of our Founders, including Southerners like Presidents Washington, Jefferson & Madison expressed their desires to see slavery eventually abolished.

So, in the beginning abolition was our highest ideal, and only in later Southern generations did it become anathema.

By stark contrast, as Confederate VP Alexander Stephens explained, slavery was the "cornerstone" of Confederate ideals.

higgmeister: "John Brown the abolitionist was captured by U.S. Marines under the command of First Lieutenant Israel Greene, USMC, with Colonel Robert E. Lee of the United States Army in overall command and then tried and hanged for insurrection."

Many famous names participated at Harper's Ferry including Lee, Jackson, Stuart and even John Wilkes Boothe.
USMC Lt. Greene later joined the Confederate Marines and eventually settled in Mitchell, South Dakota, where he died in 1909, age 84.

higgmeister: "Pointing fingers is not a very sure way to present arguments especially when "Jim Crow laws" were created by the Racial Supremacy Democrat Party who now claims to be the Black American's greatest friend."

I'm not sure just whose finger is pointed where, but I've long argued on these threads that Democrats today are the same as they've always been, from Day One, only their constituencies have changed somewhat.
But using the political system to legally enforce special privileges for Democrat constituencies was always their "game", and still is.

[BroJoeK]

Bull Snipe: "All well and good, but that does not change the legal status as a slave in those territories.
That was changed by the 13the Amendment."

You're right, of course.
And to emphasize the point, some of our Lost Causers have argued that, legally, the Union should have returned all slaves to their masters after Appomattox, until the 13th's ratification, which could never have happened had Confederates been allowed to vote!
Oh, those dastardly Republicans are so, so evil, they claim.

{sigh}

[Bull Snipe]

“The lost causers have argued that The Union should have returned all slaves to their masters after Appomattox.”

The rebellion wasn’t over yet. As a matter of fact it was August 20, 1866 when President Johnson declared the rebellion ended. By that time the 13ths had been ratified. Mr. Davis and his minions were never going to get their property back.

[Retain Mike]

I certainly will never be able to overcome your willful ignorance, but I will mention a clarifying perspective. The designation as American Veteran was first offered as a resolution by Joshua Chamberlain. It was seconded by Ulysses Grant in his confrontation with Andrew Johnson. Since that time veterans have voted in the affirmative.

But do not be concerned, because the future goes with you. The Marine rifle company will be graded on its diversity.

We are through here.