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VANITY: Battle of the Bulge, December 16th 1944 to January 30th, 1945: The first three days
Vanity ^ | 12/15/2019 | Vanity

Posted on 12/15/2019 1:07:43 PM PST by OKSooner

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To: Redcitizen
Im no WW2 historian. I’d like to get someone else’s opinion on what would have happened if Hitler/Germany Army had won the Battle of the Bulge?

That would be alternate history.

Patton said something to the effect of "Hitler's stuck his d*** in a meat grinder and I have my hand on the crank.

41 posted on 12/15/2019 5:17:20 PM PST by fso301
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To: SunkenCiv
In all the histories I've read of the Bulge I never heard any mention time as a critical factor, only in how long their fuel supplies could hold out. If this is what you're talking about then I would agree. Their primary concerns were how long the bad weather would ground Allied air power and how long it would be before the Americans could organize a counter attack. But as for the entire operation only the fanatics in the SS thought it could work.

As I said, the Wehrmacht knew it was hopeless. They didn't
prosecute the attack to fail , necessarily but they didn't exactly fight too hard to achieve a victory. As I said many German generals felt it was more important to concentrate all that armor in the East to try and hold off the Russians for as long as possible. Hitler himself was hoping that the attack would cause a political fallout in the tenuous coalition and cause a stalemate.

42 posted on 12/15/2019 5:17:51 PM PST by jmacusa ("If wisdom is not the Lord, what is wisdom?)
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To: jmacusa

Many German soldiers were just looking for an out and wanted to surrender to the Americans.

I always say, that the way to win wars is to make it easy for your enemy to surrender.

The Nazis should have taken that approach in Russia, many Russians welcomed the Germans originally as liberators from Stalinist tyranny. Had the Nazis set up a “Vichy Russia”, as they did in France, that may have worked to a degree.


43 posted on 12/15/2019 5:20:52 PM PST by dfwgator (Endut! Hoch Hech!)
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To: OKSooner
I was home from school with the measles during the Battle of the Bulge. I lay in bed with a radio and a National Geographic map of Europe, plotting the news reports of battles on the map.
44 posted on 12/15/2019 5:41:52 PM PST by JoeFromSidney (Colonel (Retired) USAF.)
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To: OKSooner

One of the finest vanities I’ve read on FR.

Really interesting, and so are the comments.

Thanks


45 posted on 12/15/2019 6:14:14 PM PST by kidd
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To: OKSooner

Bookmarking.

Thank you for posting.


46 posted on 12/15/2019 6:20:54 PM PST by Jane Long (Praise God, from whom ALL blessings flow.)
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To: OKSooner

I read the book “First Across the Rhine” a few months ago but unfortunately I am loosing my memory at 86. My brother and a brother in law were involved in it. My brother was in the engineering co that put the first Bailey bridge across and then had to defend it against the Germans were floating explosives down river. My BiL was ordered to take a truck load of “Jerry” cans to Patton who had out run his fuel supply. He told a commander he needed to get back to his unit and was told to take a Jeep out of motor pool and head back. Unfortunately he picked Patton’s favorite jeep.
My other brother was a German POW after being shot down over Weisbaden on Aug 15, 1944. (He was bombardier on a B17). He woke up one morning to strange noises and walked out of his cabin to see Patton standing in his jeep after liberating the camp... and yes, Patton was wearing his pearl handled pistols on his hips...


47 posted on 12/15/2019 7:07:18 PM PST by tubebender
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To: SunkenCiv

It’s great that the company of heroes, band of brothers guys got an HBO miniseries and a reporter in Bastogne to write the story. Patton’s army did an amazing thing by pivoting so quickly to counterpunch.

IMHO the guys who deserve more credit were the poor bastards in the 28th who fought and died rather than run or surrender, for as long as they did against impossible odds and allowed the Airborne time to get to Bastogne.

Talking up “nuts” and the Airborne heroes is better PR than talking about the division that got crushed by the intelligence failures of the US army.

My old man was an infantryman in the 110th Rgt, 2nd Bn, “Easy” Company. He told me that before the battle, when they reported contacts indicating that the Krauts were building up for a push, Division intel sent an officer complete with shined shoes and a necktie to accompany the GI’s on a recon patrol over the river at night to go see for hisself.

They got across the river, and the intel guy said he’d seen enough, even when told the Germans were up over the next ridgeline and they need to go further. He ordered them back and wrote a report about jumpy infantrymen hearing things.

When you are sending bulk we regret to inform you telegrams, the “heroes of Bastogne” story plays better than “we got cocky and your kid/husband/father got steamrolled”.


48 posted on 12/15/2019 9:31:05 PM PST by M1911A1 (Drain The Swamp)
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To: OKSooner

The Siege of Bastogne was written from interviews with nearly all the commanders and staff officers who participated in the defense of Bastogne. It is essentially the account of how a single strong defensive force was built from separate commands of armor, airborne infantry, and tank destroyers. The interviews were conducted at Bastogne from December 31st, 1944 to January 25th, 1945, and were conducted with individual officers and also with whole groups whenever possible, including reviewing problems of the defense with commanders at the original scenes of their actions, as well as acquiring additional information from official records. A few of the headings include the concentration, attack and withdrawal, doubts and decisions, low ebb and arrival of supply, and Christmas Eve among others highlighting the battle. Illustrations and maps are missing from this digital document

https://archive.org/details/TheSiegeOfBastognePt1Of4/page/n1?q=Siege+of+Bastogne

https://archive.org/details/TheSiegeOfBastognePt2Of4/page/n13

https://archive.org/details/TheSiegeOfBastognePt3Of4/page/n3

https://archive.org/details/TheSiegeOfBastognePt4Of4/page/n4


49 posted on 12/15/2019 9:56:05 PM PST by Peter W. Kessler ("NUTS!!!")
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To: kidd

Thank you, you’re very generous.


50 posted on 12/16/2019 6:17:35 AM PST by OKSooner (Free Beer Tomorrow)
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To: Jane Long

Thank you.


51 posted on 12/16/2019 6:18:10 AM PST by OKSooner (Free Beer Tomorrow)
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To: M1911A1
IMHO the guys who deserve more credit were the poor bastards in the 28th who fought and died rather than run or surrender, for as long as they did against impossible odds and allowed the Airborne time to get to Bastogne.
Well said. At minimum, Courtney Hodges, and probably Omar Bradley as well, should have been relieved of command after all the fighting was done.

52 posted on 12/16/2019 6:29:06 AM PST by SunkenCiv (Imagine an imaginary menagerie manager imagining managing an imaginary menagerie.)
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To: tubebender
yes, Patton was wearing his pearl handled pistols on his hips
"Son, only a pimp in a Louisiana whore- house carries pearl-handled revolvers. These are ivory."

53 posted on 12/16/2019 6:31:37 AM PST by SunkenCiv (Imagine an imaginary menagerie manager imagining managing an imaginary menagerie.)
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To: fso301
Germany was still going to lose.

It would have taken longer and more casualties.

54 posted on 12/16/2019 9:24:48 AM PST by ealgeone
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To: Redcitizen

Another interesting question is how the outcome would have been different had Eisenhower DIRECTED Monty to clear the Schedlt Estuary IMMEDIATELY after the fall of Antwerp, instead of letting himself be bullshi$$ed into the Market Garden fiasco.

Had Antwerp’s port facilities been available three months earlier than it actually was, there would have been no Battle of the Bulge. The war would have ended in late 1944.

IMHO.


55 posted on 12/16/2019 9:35:38 AM PST by abb
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56 posted on 12/17/2019 12:22:09 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Imagine an imaginary menagerie manager imagining managing an imaginary menagerie.)
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