Reconsidering Slavery and the Civil War

https://civilwarchat.wordpress.com ^ | September 4, 2019 | Phil Leigh

[DoodleDawg]

To see how new states are legally admitted to the Union, see Article IV.

Well that's certainly one way. But if the claim is that states can walk out at will because it is not explicitly forbidden by the Constitution then why can't they just proclaim themselves states since that's not explicitly prohibited either? Why can't states expel another state from the Union against its will? If everything is explicit and nothing is implied then both my scenarios should be true. Right?

[jeffersondem]

“But if the claim is that states can walk out at will because it is not explicitly forbidden by the Constitution then why can’t they just proclaim themselves states since that’s not explicitly prohibited either?”

The way states are added is spelled out in Article IV. For some reason the founders did adopt the way you prefer.

For the record, Lincoln did add West Virginia on a whim in violation of the United States Constitution. So there is that.

[jeffersondem]

“For some reason the founders did adopt the way you prefer.”

I wrote that wrong. It should read: “For some reason the founders did NOT adopt the way you prefer,”

[morphing libertarian]

you’re missing the points. I said nothing about armed and you turned it into a rebellion. The military option was exercised by the feds to keep the southern states in the union.

Secondly you can’t establish a law that prevents their succession yet you refer to it as illegal. Since there is no power given to the feds, the tenth amendment would allow the states to make the decision to leave or not.

[rockrr]

In the months leading up to the outbreak of war, secession was a controversial and legally undefined process. No laws enumerating it; no laws outlawing it. The south relied on that confusion to effect their break away. The north held that they were legally powerless to stop any secession, but did have power - and duty - to stop insurrection. Thus was the recipe for war.

Post-war, SCOTUS, in the Texas v. White case, ruled unilateral secession - as practiced by Texas and the other southern states expressly unconstitutional. So now (absent a legal challenge) it is a moot point.

[morphing libertarian]

so there was no legally defined process and if the north called succession “insurrection” that justified the civil war. Noice spin on word usage by the union.

[FLT-bird]

try seceding and see what happens.

Might and Right are not the same things.

[FLT-bird]

Ah if only you would do the same.

When you stop posting your BS I can stop responding to it.

[FLT-bird]

I do want to say this. I am glad that the southern fire-eaters rebelled. I believe if they had not rebelled we most likely would have had slavery in this country until the early to mid 20th century. Even as terrible as the civil war was I think it was worth it to get rid of slavery. I am proud of the fact that the US did finally do the right thing and ended slavery in this country. During the course of the war the US Army became an army of liberation for the slaves. It continues this tradition to today.

I don't think it would have lasted nearly that long. By 1882 or so the last slaveholding countries in the western world, Brazil and Cuba, had emancipated all of their slaves. It was dying everywhere. A bloodbath was not a good way to get rid of it. Everybody else in the 19th century managed to get rid of it peacefully.

[FLT-bird]

Does he ever?

Yes and I've posted them many times

“If you bring these leaders to trial, it will condem the North, for by the Constitution, secession is not rebellion. His (Jefferson Davis’), capture was a mistake. His trial will be a greater one. We cannot convict him of treason. Secession is settled. Let it stay settled.” Chief Justice Salmon. P. Chase to Stanton

Google it for yourself. The quote has been widely cited.

[FLT-bird]

If a state can leave the union merely by holding a convention or a referendum and the saying, "I'm not a state anymore" then why can't states join the Union by holding a referendum or a convention, sending representatives to Washington, and saying "I'm a state now?"

Because the other states that are in would have to agree to admit the state filing to be admitted.

[FLT-bird]

If a state resorts to rebellion then isn't force by the federal government justified?

You keep getting tripped up by this word "Rebellion" which assumes the conclusion. It was not rebellion. States are sovereign and have the right to unilateral secession.

[rockrr]

The north didn't call secession insurrection, it called insurrection insurrection.

[rockrr]

The south screwed up and failed to enjoy either one. Wanna try again?

[morphing libertarian]

I didn’t use the word I responded to the guy who called succession insurrection

[FLT-bird]

The Southern states exercised their rights as sovereign states.

[Bull Snipe]

Being right and loosing a war not the same thing either.

[Bull Snipe]

What FLT-bird won’t post by Chief Justice Chase is his statement “that secession was null, void and unconstitutional” in the White v. Texas decision.

[DoodleDawg]

I said nothing about armed and you turned it into a rebellion. The military option was exercised by the feds to keep the southern states in the union.

Breezed right by that whole Fort Sumter thing, didn't you?

Secondly you can’t establish a law that prevents their succession yet you refer to it as illegal.

No, I said secession as practiced by the Southern states was illegal. Secession itself is not forbidden by the Constitution, seceding unilaterally is. Secession needs to be done after negotiation and with the consent of the other states. Chase thought so. Madison thought so. Jefferson thought so. Who am I to disagree with them?

Since there is no power given to the feds, the tenth amendment would allow the states to make the decision to leave or not.

If no such power existed then I'd agree with you.

[DoodleDawg]

“If you bring these leaders to trial, it will condem the North, for by the Constitution, secession is not rebellion. His (Jefferson Davis’), capture was a mistake. His trial will be a greater one. We cannot convict him of treason. Secession is settled. Let it stay settled.” Chief Justice Salmon. P. Chase to Stanton

See my reply 177 and 204.

Google it for yourself. The quote has been widely cited.

Cited but not sourced.