Posted on 05/14/2016 5:32:31 PM PDT by atc23
My godmother gave me a .38 calibre long barrel Colt issued by the Rock Island Armory. It had been carried by her uncle in the Spanish American War. This looks similar except mine won’t fire.
Is this the .38 that didn’t faze juramentados during the Philippine Insurrection, and was replaced by the .45?
I have a US Army Model 1917 with the lanyard ring swivel. As you say it shoots 45 ACP on moon clips (in 2, 3, or 6 round version). It will also shoot 45 Autorim.
I like that phrase....Thank you.
Looks like an Army Special, which became the Official Police in about 1927. The grips would make it an earlier, possibly around 1910.
The Colt New Army and New Navy Model Revolvers had a relatively short service life, which generally runs from 1892 until adoption of the Colt Model 1909 Revolver in .45 Long Colt (Modified). The Colt New Army Revolver, although a relatively sophisticated double-action, swing out cylinder design, for the time period, was woefully underpowered. As the Army and Marine Corp’s issued sidearm during the Spanish American War and, later, during the Philippine Insurrection and fighting in the southern Philippine Islands against the fanatical Muslim Moros, the .38 Caliber Colt round simply did not have the stopping power needed, which led the Ordnance Department to resurrect the old .45 Long Colt until the new Colt 1911 chambered for the .45 ACP round was formally adopted and issued. Nevertheless, the New Army was the issue sidearm for US troops during the end of the Indian War period and during the whole of the Spanish American War. It remained in service during the Philippine Insurrection even after introduction of the Colt Model 1909 Revolver and even saw service during WWI in the hands of some soldiers and officers who had been issued the weapon years before and liked the lighter weight as compared to the Colt 1911 or the Colt Model 1917 Revolver.
Thanks for the info. -
Interesting - well I’m not surprised that a 100 year old pistol has such ham handed people fooling around with it.
Excellent work on the part of Swordmaker (posts 36, 37) in detecting the telltale signs of aftermarket refinishing. The color on atc23’s revolver also gives it away: the deep blue-black derives from the saturated-salt hot process, which became US industry standard only after the Second World War. Before then, Colt’s revolvers (and their autoloaders) were finished a finer slate blue, termed the rust or nitre process.
Unfortunately, atc23 did not reveal the serial number, which is a key determining factor.
The arm appears to be Colt’s medium frame (factory letter E), manufactured from 1889 until circa 1970, bearing a number of trade names.
It introduced the swing-out cylinder revolver to the world in 1889, and was called the “New Navy.” Some 31,000 were made in calibers 38 and 41 Long Colt; cylinder rotates right to left at top viewed from the rear; no cylinder stop cuts in cylinder periphery (cuts were on rear of cylinder).
In 1892, it was re-designed to become the “New Army and Navy.” Cylinder stop notches were moved to the rear periphery of the cylinder and there were two rows, but the cylinder still rotates right to left (CCW). The US War Dept adopted it as the official sidearm in 1892; changes were made and new designations of M1894, M1895, M1896, M1901, and M1903 adopted. 291,000 made until 1907, in 38 S&W, 38 and 41 Long Colt.
In 1907, Colt’s revamped all their swingout-cylinder revolvers to incorporate the “positive lock” safety. In 1908, they introduced the “Army Special,” with simplified internal parts, but the same frame size as the New Army & Navy. Cylinder rotation direction was changed from right to left to left to right - clockwise as viewed from the user’s perspective (matching all other colt DA guns). The new cylinder had only a single row of stop notches. Serialization continued the run established by the New Army & Navy. 32-20 was added to the chamberings (38 Special had been added circa 1901).
As a poster noted, the trade name was changed to “Official Police” in the 1920s.
The chief identifying feature for atc23’s revolver is the curve at the top of the trigger guard: on the Army Special and Official Police, the frame dips down a little, above the trigger body.
Regret to report Swordmaker did not fully identify the revolver in the gorgeous photo accompanying post 40. The image shows a Police Positive Special, which was introduced in 1908, but was not a follow-on to the Army Special/Official Police. Chiefest means of identification is the shape of the trigger guard: the Police Positive Special is elliptical or egg-shaped. It was marketed alongside the Official Police right to the end of the 1960s, and begat the Detective Special in the 1920s. Chamberings were 38 Special, 32-20, and 32 New Police (same as 32 S&W Long).
Not yet illustrated in this thread are the Police Positive and Pocket Positive revolvers. They are often confused with the Police Positive Special but are smaller in frame size. Introduced in the 1890s as the New Police and New Pocket in 32 Colt caliber, they were revamped along with most of the rest in 1907 (when they got their new names of Police Positive and Pocket Positive). Two frame heights were made: standard (32 cal) and taller (38 S&W aka 38 New Police). Rimfire versions appeared, and some 32s were made on the 38 frame. The Pocket Positive differed only in grip size. [In Swordmaker’s defense, many dealers and veteran collectors confuse the Police Positive and Police Positive Special]. 32 Short and Long Colt disappeared circa 1912, fully replaced by the 38 S&W and 32 S&W Long ... Colt’s insisted on its own names for these - 38 and 32 New Police. Prospective shooters are admonished to check their old revolvers with great care: neither are compatible with 32 Colt or 38 Colt.
atc23’s description of the “Colt Army” stampings as irregular is important. No such factory-applied markings ever existed; genuine Colt’s markings were always ruler-straight, having been applied by roll die or etching. Hammer and trigger finishes of standard-quality revolvers were never case-hardened; most were blued on front and rear, with the sides polished bright (today, rust pits are very common).
Colt’s never used bakelite for grips. Beginning in the 1870s and ending around 1929, they used a substance called India rubber, hard rubber, or gutta percha. It was black and molded well. After 1929, they went fully to wood, or early thermoplastic in very drab brown, or dull green or other unattractive colors. Gutta Percha wasn’t very durable and all guns sold to the military were equipped with wood grips. 32-20 was never a military issue caliber.
FlyFisher (post 34) is urgently warned not to attempt to fire 45 Long Colt in a US M1917 revolver. The 45 ACP and 45 Long Colt are two entirely different rounds and never interchanged; headspace in the M1917 revolvers (Colt’s and S&W) is very large compared to 45 Long Colt and disaster is certain. People have nevertheless attempted to tinker with revolvers thus built, to get one cartridge to work in the other. Avoid anyone who displays such terrible judgment.
Not surprising to hear that Jimmy Valentine’s godmother’s revolver isn’t working. It’s almost certainly a New Army & Navy and they are gunsmithing nightmares. Some parts can be obtained from Bob’s Gun Shop or Jack First Inc.
Anyone attempting to fire a New Army & Navy today is advised to go very carefully. All are over 100 years old, and in many Colts of the day, the chambers have no step in the chamber. It’s thus very easy to chamber a 357 Magnum in a revolver originally intended to fire nothing more exciting than a 38 Long Colt, or a 38 Special.
Colt’s did not certify its 38 cal revolvers would handle 38 Special Plus-P until the SFVI in the 1990s.
Taste in firearms styling is subjective, but anyone deeming the DA Colts of 1889-1998 ugly ought to cast an eye over some of the oddities that appeared 1865-1910. None of them can match the sleek elegance of the later percussion revolvers (1850-1862), Root models excepted.
much of this information was drawn from Flayderman, and the website coltautos.com
The polisher almost reversed the angle of the frame at the bottom of the crane (frame corner forward of the trigger guard)!
It's amazing how "small" details can change perception -- without the mind actually registering the specific difference. When atc23 said, "Colt's", my mind subconsciously expected shiny, flawless finish and sharp edges -- and, without knowing why, my first response was, "That's not a real Colt's!".
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(Mea culpa: I've been known to deliberately, radically bevel and round sharp corners, remove mold-parting lines, and polish out the vapor-honed finish on cheap, stainless "pocket pieces" like the .380 AMT Backup.)
Makes 'em much more "pretty" and pleasant to carry and shoot -- and when I show 'em to the dealer who sold 'em to me, they don't even recognize 'em as an AMT...! One dealer actually said. "Hey! This thing actually feels 'soft' in your hand, now -- are you SURE this is an 'AMT Backup'?"
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atc23: Sorry -- not "trashing" your piece -- just amazed at how the small changes on it misled us all for a while...
If I had it, I know what I'd do: get me some .38 shot loads -- and carry it for a snake gun -- which one needs in these Texas Piney Woods...
Fascinating info - I’ll get the serial number when I get home. The grips feel and look like Bakelite or something similar - not “rubber”. Very hard like antique telephones
Colt Police Positive.
I have one in .32-20. Shorter barrel though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0H_5PSNokk
Speaking of which. Nice little song by Robert Johnson.
Seems he has a .32-20 and his “baby” has a .38 special.
Mayhem ensues.
“Colt Police Positive.
I have one in .32-20. Shorter barrel though.”
Wrong.
No Police Positive frame was long enough for 32-20 (which possesses almost exactly the same overall cartridge length as 38 Special).
Colt’s chambered their double action swingout-cylinder revovers in 32-20, only in the Police Positive Special (later termed factory frame size D) and the Army Special/Official Police (factory frame size E).
” ... The grips feel and look like Bakelite or something similar - not “rubber”. Very hard like antique telephones.”
atc23 may confusing today’s squishy, bounce-prone elastic substances generically called “rubber” with the grip material of yore. The latter was most commonly called “hard rubber”, but was also known as “India rubber” and “gutta percha”.
Chiefly black in color, hard rubber was easily moldable and rigid. It could be carved or sanded to shape. Specimens sometimes take on a faint greenish tint, or dark brown. Not sure if these tints were present when they were manufactured, or are caused by aging.
Sure fire Bakelite test. Rub it hard on your palm and build some friction heat into the material and give it a whiff. Bakelite will smell like rubber.
Rubber. Smells like a pencil eraser when I rub it on my hand to get heat built up.
serial number is 319010
I guess. It sits loaded in a drawer beside my bed. I know it says “Police Positive”. I’ll have to check on the “Special”. Regardless, I have a Winchester 1895 in .32-20 that was, supposedly, carried along with the Colt by my great Uncle who was a U.S Marshall in the Oklahoma territory.
“I guess. It sits loaded in a drawer beside my bed. I know it says “Police Positive”. I’ll have to check on the “Special”. Regardless, I have a Winchester 1895 in .32-20 that was, supposedly, carried along with the Colt by my great Uncle who was a U.S Marshall in the Oklahoma territory.”
Prewar Police Positive Specials were marked “Police Positive 38 Special” on the left side of the barrel when chambered in 38 Special (memory fails at the moment, about the chambering marks if it was 32-20).
The Police Positives were marked “Police Positive 32 police ctg” (or “38” if chambered in 38 Police ctg; they will be marked “32 Colt” (or “38 Colt”) if so chambered; these will not interchange with the 32 or 38 Police cartridges, which correspond to 32 S&W Long and 38 S&W, respectively). The best way to distinguish a PPS from a PP is to compare cylinder length. PPS has a slightly longer cylinder.
Any Winchester 1895 chambered in 32-20 would be a true collector rarity. Winchester’s last lever rifle designed by John M Browning, the M95 sported a non-detachable box magazine ahead of the trigger guard and was chambered for the newest high-power cartridges of the day, charged with smokeless powder: 30-40, 30-03, 30-06, 303 British, 7.62x54R Russian, 405 Winchester, and some others. Made from 1895 until 1935. Many were made under contract with the Imperial Russian government during the First World War. Those are rarely seen on the domestic collector market.
Best guess is that saleman’s great uncle owned a Winchester M1892, if it chambered 32-20. Made from 1892 until 1941, it also chambered 44-40, 38-40, 25-20, and 218 Bee (rare variant with a different model number). Another John M Browning design, it is often termed Winchester’s first million-seller, but than honor goes to the M1894, which hit 1,000,000 in 1927 or so. The M92 was the earliest Winchester to exceed a production total over 1,000,000, which it did only near the end of its run.
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