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To: Sherman Logan
Islamists do not consider human rights, democracy, and fair treatment of women to be reforms even though they are and tend to make societies that embrace them less violent and less aggressive.

After WW II, such reforms were central to reconstruction of Germany and Japan. Today, both countries provide a better life for their citizens than they did before the war and are reliable US allies. I see no reason not to urge that Islam also adopt modern ways in the hope of spurring similar results.

It is absurd to think that Islam protects women. Muslim societies regard women as subject to rape in a wide range of circumstances, to beatings for trivial reasons, and to death for incurring dishonor on their family in even the most innocent of circumstances.

Nor does rule by mullahs lead to a virtuous society. Iran is rife with drug abuse and prostitution, with many high end Iranian prostitutes plying their trade in the Gulf states as the main source of support for their extended families at home. Generally, when rich Muslims want to party, they can easily do so discretely at home, or they go to the West's tourist spots, with Islam no restraint on their conduct.

39 posted on 03/16/2015 8:36:04 AM PDT by Rockingham
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To: Rockingham

Nowhere have I claimed that human right, including those for women, are not reforms. Just that quite a large number of people around the world disagree.

You are falling into the trap that is almost universal, have to struggle against it myself. Here’s an example: “human rights, democracy, and fair treatment of women to be reforms ... tend to make societies that embrace them less violent and less aggressive.”

The assumption here is that everyone will agree with us that less violence and aggression is a good thing. Well, they don’t. In militaristic societies, or those based on the notion of the obligation to wage eternal war on the rest of the world until they submit, why would they view less violence or aggression as good things? Those are our values, not theirs.

Another example: Expose a 17th century Euro aristo to the notion that “all men are created equal.” He would be appalled. What, he’s the equal of his own serfs? Don’t be ridiculous. When the Founders made this statement, they said “we hold (or believe) these truths to be self-evident.” They did not claim they were facts, much less that everyone in the world agreed with them.

I probably share your values to several decimal points, but I try not to assume everybody else does.

I agree that Western societies are better for women than Muslim ones. But try to see what devout Muslims, including women, see when they look at how women are treated in the West. They see dishonor and degradation.

I’ve never said Islamic societies are virtuous, only that their sincerely held values often diverge considerably from ours.


41 posted on 03/16/2015 9:27:22 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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