Posted on 05/06/2014 9:24:02 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
Killing a human being turns out to be surpassingly hard to do.
This was made gruesomely apparent in Oklahoma last week, when the state tried to execute a convicted murderer named Clayton Lockett by injecting him with a new and secret mix of deadly chemicals. "Man," Lockett moaned, sixteen minutes after the injection and long after he was supposed to be dead, and he tried to get up, and began to writhe and jerk on the gurney until prison officials closed a curtain to keep the witnesses from seeing the rest of the episode. Alarm set in. The doctor on hand told state officials that Lockett had not received enough chemicals to kill him, but that there were no more chemicals on hand. There were debates over whether to take the prisoner to a hospital. Forty-three minutes after injection, Lockett had a massive heart attack (this was not part of the state's plan) and died.
Even under controlled circumstances like state executions — in which the executed has no freedom of movement, no ability to resist, in which the state is in complete control — human beings prove surprisingly resilient. Over the past century, 3 percent of hangings have been botched, and about 2 percent of electrocutions. More than 5 percent of gassings in state-operated gas chambers went awry. Lethal injections have become the most common mode of execution in the United States, but they are more error-prone still: 7 percent of them are botched. Which means that subsumed into the deep and difficult question of why we are executing prisoners at all is another question, more tangible but just as telling: Why are we killing them in the least effective way?
(Excerpt) Read more at nymag.com ...
1. Actions have consequences. Murder's consequences are execution.
2. No indication that this "person" ever repented of his actions.
This means that his actions were not paid for, and he has ended up attempting to pay in full for his actions--which he never will. That is why hell is forever.
Adultery is not the same as murder in terms of consequences.
We’re talking about the principles of capital crime and capital punishment. The one who took the punishment for all crimes upon himself did not make any exception for what was being thoroughly and completely punished. The “punishment” issue has been thoroughly and completely dealt with.
BTW--we're talking earthly consequences here--not eternal.
Right, I talk about that in post #56.
Angled blade-check
200 lb blade-check
cradle so head doesn’t drop-check
blade heated to 815 degrees-check
Place blindfolded executionee faceup on platform, secure forehead and chin straps, secure chest, waist and knee straps. Make appropriate announcement e.g. “May God have mercy on your worthless soul.”
Trip blade release.
Quick and bloodless version of the Guillotine:
Angled blade-check
200 lb blade-check
cradle so head doesn’t drop-check
blade heated to 815 degrees for instant cautery-check
Place blindfolded executionee faceup on platform, secure forehead and chin straps, secure chest, waist and knee straps. Make appropriate announcement e.g. “May God have mercy on your worthless soul.”
Trip blade release.
On a similar thread, other Freepers suggested carbon monoxide, or simply nitrogen.
Both are abundant, and would be 100% lethal. Particularly CO.
The death penalty is a consequence for the crime of murder in the first degree (premeditated). Whether you call it a “penalty” or “punishment” is irrelevant. It’s not revenge, it’s not vengeance, it’s the logical consequence for the crime of premeditated murder.
The death penalty does not replace the victim to their family or loved ones, but it is the just consequence for intentionally taking the life of another person. There is no restitution possible to the victim because that victim is dead. That’s why the law in the Old Testament called for the death penalty in cases of first degree murder.
Jesus’s death on the cross paid the penalty of our sin toward God, but that has nothing to do with the consequences of the crimes we’ve committed against other human beings.
Whether forgiveness is given by the victim’s family is up to that family. I agree that “letting go” of one’s anger toward the murderer can be therapeutic, but that has nothing to do with the penalty or consequence of the crime.
I also agree that restitution should be the primary way of dealing with those who have robbed or stolen from their victims, but in the case of first degree murder, that is not possible.
Even God’s forgiveness of our personal sin does not always remove the consequences we face as a result of those sins. Our soul is saved for God, but the earthly life may still have to live with the consequences of our actions.
The death penalty is the only just way of dealing with the premeditated taking of an innocent person’s life.
“Forgiveness” does not take away the consequences - that’s why Jesus had to die to take away the guilt of our sin - it was the only just way to remove the guilt of our sins.
“Forgiveness” between two parties cannot be fully realized if the guilty party does not ask for forgiveness. Even with God we have to admit our guilt and ask His forgiveness. In the case of murder, family members may be willing to “forgive” an unrepentant murderer by “letting go” of their hurt and anger toward that person, but forgiveness is not possible between the murderer and his/her victim.
The role of government, as given by God (and explained by Paul) is to provide law and order. Part of that role is to mete out justice. And, that includes the death penalty, which Paul implies when he says in Romans 13 “For he (government authority) is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.”
Not executing a murderer diminishes the value of the life of the victim. It elevates the life of the murderer above that of his victim. Again, God can forgive murder, but the consequence in this life remains.
Okay, then let’s revert to the firing squad, hanging, the electric chair or the gas chamber. A few seconds of discomfort for a person found guilty of killing another has no argument when it comes to dispatching them. Let’s quit fooling around. We are attempting to kill them. Did they give any consideration to the amount of discomfort they caused to the people they murdered?
Pump 12 gauge shotgun to the head until there is no head left...shouldn’t take more than about 5 seconds.
What did God say?
“But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.”
Note this is in the judicial sense. On a personal level, we need to forgive - but society cannot forgive the lawbreaker:
“But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer.”
re: “That Someone said to the perpetrator of a capital crime, “I don’t condemn you.” He could say that becasue he was about to take her and everyone else’s punishment upon himself for all time.”
Must disagree here as well. Jesus, as God the Son, has the authority to forgive sins. The woman “caught in adultery” was apparently guilty, and, according to the Mosaic law, could have been put to death. But, as God in the flesh, He has the authority to forgive. Only He has that authority because only He can see into the human heart and know actions and motives.
Also, you are confusing God’s forgiveness of human sin with law and order here on earth. Reread Romans 13 regarding the role of government and our relationship to it.
If Jesus’s death removes all penalty for all crimes, then we don’t need judges or the law. I know that you are not saying that, but if you take your argument to its logical conclusion, then you must apply it not only to capital punishment, but to all criminal behavior as well.
Jesus’s mission was not to free everyone out of prison, but to free us from the penalty of spiritual death and hell, to remove our guilt before God. That has nothing to do with the consequences of crime committed on earth. That has nothing to do with the role of government or law and order.
hey were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
Only in your opinion. There is no biblical reference that punishment for crimes should end with Christ death.
You continue to confuse crime with sin. They are not the same. They do not have the same consequences.
The point here is not "forgiveness" in a vacuum, but payment for a criminal act. The act has already been condemned and judged and purposeful double condemnation and double judgement upon the same person for the same crime is unjust and immoral.
the consequence in this life remains.
Well, again, I've named a number of consequences that naturally flow from wrongful and heinous acts. Meaningful consequence doesn't necessitate punishment.
Not executing a murderer diminishes the value of the life of the victim.
So anything less than "eye-for-eye" vengeance "diminishes the value of the life of the victim"? Something wrong with that.
Actually, society in general is greatly benefited by going from punishment/vengeance mentality, to a more positive and forward-looking approach to consequences for crime. A society that demands protection from dangerous criminals and allows appropriate consequences would be a happier, more peaceful society than a vengeful society IMO. Isn't that the point and the goal of what we're all after: a happier, more peaceful and free society? Again, I think these alternatives would help cultivate a happier society unlike the vengeance consciousness of punishment mentality.
Because some people don’t want there to be any executions.
So, they throw as much sand in the gears as possible.
One set constantly tries to have it outlawed.
Another set tries to make it nearly impossible to execute anyone by fouling up the process in the hope that everyone will eventually say to hell with it.
That’s why in so many states lethal injection is the only option left. Because people have seen to it the only option allowed is the worst one - logistically speaking.
Punishment of crimes protects members of society. It is a very effective deterrent on future crimes.
My take-
No, putting someone to death does not bring their victims back to life or undo the evil they have committed. But I don’t think that is relevant at all to the subject. No one who supports the Death Penalty believes the person’s death will make everything alright. It is about Justice, not Vengeance. “Vengeance is Mine,” sayeth the Lord. Only God can exact vengeance upon a person’s soul. We can not.
But there is something we can do. We can say “With these actions you have forfeited your right to live amongst us and no length of incarceration will satisfy your debt. It is either too dangerous to allow you to live or your actions are so heinous that you no longer deserve to live out the remainder of your life.
And so, we cast you out of this world and send you on to the next. This will satisfy your debt to society but only God can decide upon your debt to Him. When you stand before Him, He will pass judgment upon you. May God have mercy on your everlasting soul.”
As to the Sixth Commandment, “Thou shalt not kill,” I believe the KJV is a slight mistranslation. ‘Kill’ is a very broad term which has no moral connotation. Something or someone was alive and is now dead. Period. A more correct translation would have been, “Thou shalt not murder,” where ‘murder’ contains the moral connotation of meaning the taking of innocent life. It is not murder to kill in legitimate self-defense, to kill in battle, or to kill the wicked.
Of course. That's all anyone here has to offer.
You continue to confuse crime with sin. They are not the same. They do not have the same consequences.
Not the same or not interchangeable doesn't mean that they don't overlap. Probably every named crime is also a sin. Here, however, we're dealing with act as a crime. The full penalty was paid for that criminal act, which also happens to be a sin.
And meaningful & just consequences do not necessitate punishment.
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