Posted on 02/28/2014 8:50:14 AM PST by Rusty0604
I received an interesting email regarding Ukraine from reader Jacob Dreizin, a US citizen who speaks both Russian and Ukrainian.
Jacob comments on media bias and offers the "full scoop" on Ukraine.
Hi Mish,
The last Ukrainian government was awful, but as someone who speaks the language and has been reading the local news for hours each day, I want you to know there are two sides to this story.
The Western media is not reporting accurately and in a balanced way as to what’s going on in Ukraine, both in the run-up to the fall of the regime, and now, in the aftermath.
There is a “reign of terror” in Kiev and some other areas right now.
Offices and even private homes associated with the former ruling party and its communist allies have been ransacked or burned by militias...
Other pro-Russia citizens have been rounded up and taken away by militias, with no warrant. We have no idea if, how, or where they are being held.
The ultra-nationalist umbrella groups that direct the militias have just announced they will essentially take charge of Central Elections Commission HQ and monitor its work during the upcoming national vote. How fair will the vote be?
Also, one of parliament’s very first post-revolution decisions was to revoke the right of local governments to do business in non-Ukrainian languages, such as Russian. Another law has been proposed to effectively ban the broadcast or rebroadcast of television or radio from Russia. There are still other proposed bills aimed at provoking and oppressing the Russian or Russian-speaking population.
It’s much easier to pretend this is about democracy, human rights, the peoples’ choice, etc. while looking the other way now that “our guys” have won. We have seen this movie before.
(Excerpt) Read more at globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com ...
True...Much of Western Ukraine was Polish before the war, the Soviets kicked the Poles out. Lwów jest Polski!
Interesting self bio.
Out of curiosity, how old are you.
I’m in my mid 70’s and started really looking at what was supposedly happening in our world after I turned 70. Not what we were being told by the elites on both sides.
Dave
A really peculiar argument for an American to make, given our own history. Kind of takes away any American right to complain about "Hispanics" wanting to reunify "Aztlan."
The Crimea, notably, was part of Russia till the 50s, when Kruschev handed it off to Ukraine as a nationalist sop. Since both Russia and Ukraine were under the thumb of the Soviet Communist Party, it was difficult at the time to see how it might make any difference.
Ooops.
It should be noted that in Eastern Europe (Poland, Baltics, Ukraine, Russia, eastern Germany, etc.), which is a giant plain, there are NO "natural boundaries," and none of the present boundaries have any "solid historical past." Using "historical boundaries" as definitive necessarily involves never-ending conflict, since they all overlap. For instance, Poland (or Poland-Lithuania) used to include much of the Ukraine and western Russia, all of the Baltics, etc.
It should also be noted that this was exactly the reasoning Hitler used (quite accurately) as justification for his invasion of Poland, a country only 20 years old at the time, a little newer than Ukraine is now. It incorporated land that had previously been part of Germany for many centuries and the inhabitants of which wanted to return to the Fatherland.
And the US has no freaking business to mess with it imho
I quite agree. I don't believe I've ever said otherwise.
Of course most of those "German" cities were founded during the Piast era and originally had Polish names, before the Germans moved in. So as usual, these things cut both ways.
got ignorance?
Of course, just 30 years before that this area was entirely Russian, as was most of what is now Poland.
"Historical boundaries" is a game fraught with contradictions.
The EU and the UN as the entities secretly potting behind the scenes to control the world.
That's very funny. Almost as funny as the conspiracy theory with the British Royal Family filling the same role.
The first requirement of any such conspiracy would be extraordinary competence, a quality for which neither the EU, UN nor Royal Family is well known.
I have no doubt there are groups out there, notably the EU and UN, that would love to fill this role. I just doubt their ability to implement their plans.
IOW, I agree with you as to their intentions, disagree with regard to their capabilities.
Nope.
Poland reassembled itself after WWII from the partitions imposed on it by Austria, Prussia and Russia 150 or so years earlier. This was in very late 1918. Then it fought a number of wars, notably with USSR, that determined its boundaries.
So the Poland invaded by Germany in 1939 was less than 21 years old, and some of its boundaries were some years younger than that.
Ukraine declared its independence from USSR in June of 1990. So it is at present coming up on being 24 years old.
Germany only became a country in 1871, so I guess they were “new” too.
That’s right, but to say blankly that a country with a 1,000 year old history of nationhood is only 20 years old is misleading to say the least. So the comparison to Ukraine, which as a state is twenty some years old is not quite valid. And oh, the word ‘ukraine’ meant in both Polish and Russian ‘borderlands’ until the Ukrainian province was first created by Russia and Poland in the 17th century.
In East Prussia, the Poles brought the Teutonic Knights in to deal with the Old Prussians, a pagan tribe the Poles couldn’t handle.
As you say, the history often cuts in all directions.
Prior to about 1600 the Poles were a conquering and imperialistic nation, especially in the Ukrains. Now they have developed a victimology (much of it fully justified) about as extensive as any other people, with the probable exception of the Jews.
The collapse of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was one of the great tragedies of Europe.
Sure, in their current boundaries. In fact, in 1939 Germany, it its current boundaries was just about the same age as Poland.
What we get into here is each “nation’s” belief that its own “historical boundaries” are sacred, while those of other “nations” are not.
And with all sides always forgetting that very often those they look backward to in justifying those historical boundaries had little if any conciousness of themselves at the time as being “a nation.”
For instance, a very popular ideology in Poland-Lithuania of the 17th century was “Sarmatianism,” under which the nobility considered themselves descendants of the Sarmatians of classical times. They had conquered and ruled over the local Slavs and eventually adopted their language. But the nobility were superior because of their ancestry. They didn’t consider most of the actual Poles, much less the Ukrainians and other “nations” they ruled to be deserving of any political rights.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatism
By this ideology there was no “Polish nation.” Only a group of peoples ruled over by the descendants of the Sarmatians, the Poles one of them.
True, that Nationalism as we know it today, is a fairly recent phenomenon. The founding of united Germany and united Italy in the 1800s probably served as the catalyst.
Just curious. Why do you think so?
It certainly wasn't very popular with most of its subjects. A very large diverse country weakly controlling immense fertile territories is a standing invitation to invasion by its neighbors.
AS I'm sure you know, in its heyday Poland was an unapologetically imperialistic nation. They even conquered Moscow several times.
I’m 71.
I try to understand what’s happening, but I know as little as any of us. We cut the TV cord in 2008.
We’re all in Plato’s Cave, watching the shadows on the wall.
Here’s one teensy tidbit.
The “Rightists” (what “right” and “left” mean in this situation I have no clue) are asking Moslems for help. ALready in the western part of Ukraine at least one synagogue has been burned, threats against Jews made too.
There is no “good” side.
I don’t think any of it is secret. It seems to me that the people who think they can control everything are quite open to talking about it, writing books, founding action groups, etc.
I also don’t think competency is a requirement for control freaks. I think the discussion was about who was stirring the pot of unrest and for which reasons. “Who benefits?”, was the questions asked. If nations and economies are in turmoil, lately everyone seems to punt to Central Governments and the EU is about as centralized as it gets in the West, with the UN in contention to be even more so.
However, the power does seem to have gravitated towards those 2 institutions filled with unelected bureaucrats. They do seem to spend all their time attempting to rearrange nations, economies and cultures. They do spawn myriad unelected action groups to whom they funnel money and some of which are also granted quasi-bureaucratic powers.
The British Royals were accused of this sort of behavior mainly based on their bloodlines. The younger European aristocrats seem content to be wealthy celebrities, these days. Perhaps the UN and the EU simply filled a vacuum.
Personally, I lean toward collusion rather than conspiracy.
Certainly, Poland-Lithuania didn't come up to present-day standards of liberty and democracy and self-determination, but no state back then did. It has to be judged more against other states existing at the same time, rather than against some modern standard.
And the options possible at the time also have to be considered: the break up of Poland-Lithuania did not mean that Ukrainians and other subject peoples got their own countries.
The idea that the old Commonwealth was or would have been freer than the Tsarist empire is also at least worthy of consideration. Arguably, too it served as a bridge between the West and the Orthodox lands, or if not a bridge, than a bulwark, something Westerners might well applaud.
I suspect the argument is similar to the great enthusiasm some people have for the Habsburg monarchy. I don't really share it but do sort of understand what's behind it.
Regarding Plato’s shadows, watching TV is watching shadows of the shadows!
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