Who is Jesus Christ and Who is Irrational? (Mike Adams)

clashdaily.com ^ | 12-4-2013 | Mike Adams

[donmeaker]

I guess you have fooled yourself.

[boatbums]

3) that Jesus had been resurrected from the dead, and thereafter was seen by over five hundred eyewitnesses (most of whom were alive when Paul wrote) (1Cor 15:4,5) Name them. Gather their testimony. I will wait.

Paul DID name many of them:

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born. (I Cor. 15:2-7)

We have the written testimony from Peter, James, Matthew, Mark, John and Paul, in addition to some of the earliest church fathers such as Clement of Rome, Papias, Polycarp and Irenaeus. There may have been written testimony from some of those others who were eyewitnesses to the resurrected Christ which didn't survive the two thousand years (time is kinda tough on papyrus or animal skins - the most common material used for writings). As Kevmo has stated, the New Testament writings were completed while thousands of eyewitnesses were still alive. The claims made within those books would have been rejected had they said things contrary to what people witnessed with their own eyes. That we don't have a plethora of such disputations seems to me to prove the disciples were speaking the truth.

Do you have any eyewitnesses handy who can give you their testimony that the Apostles all lied???

[donmeaker]

I don’t doubt people were more intelligent BCE. After all, there were no Christians then....

[Kevmo]

The bible records that there were over 500 eyewitnesses to Christ’s resurrection. Do you accept them as witnesses? I sincerely doubt you will.

If he was responding to the Christian heresy,
***Then by that early date in history, this “heresy” was already claiming that Jesus was put to death for claiming equality with God. There’s no evidence that this creeped in over hundreds of years. It was being loudly proclaimed by the year AD30-AD35, right out of the gate.

So do you accept that this rabbi was a historical person dealing with his own contemporary issue surrounding christianity at his time? Or does his name have to be written into stone for you to accept historicity?

[donmeaker]

Keep in mind, Jesus putatively died about CE 27 to CE33. That would be contemporary.

AD 70.... not so much.

Imagine if there was noone who had ever written about G. Washington until 1825. What a loss that would be.

[donmeaker]

I can’t accept the 500 as witnesses until I know their names. I can’t evaluate their testimony until it is provided.

Absent that, they may have witnessed something, but we don’t know what, and don’t know them from the drunk who drove the beer wagon.

[donmeaker]

And we have from the testimony of Matthew, Mark, Peter, John various things that they could not have witnessed, that are combined with things that are impossible.

Normally when a witness perjures, their testimony on all else is thrown out.

[donmeaker]

We have no evidence that it was proclaimed in AD30-35.

It may have been. We don’t have any evidence of that until much later.

[Kevmo]

Based upon your utterly irrational approach to history, you are the one fooling yourself. I have seen this kind of idealogical blind side before. It’s a sign of simple dishonesty.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2316798/posts

If you cannot be honest with the simplest of historical evidence, you are fooling yourself. The sad part is, the price is going to be more than you will want to pay.

[Kevmo]

Imagine if there was noone who had ever written about G. Washington until 1825. What a loss that would be.
***Julius Caesar’s writings are dated several hundred years after his death. Do you throw him out as a historical figure? Historians don’t.

Paul’s letters began circulating within perhaps 20 years of the departure of Christ. Historians know when Paul died.

[editor-surveyor]

Yehova knows enough to know you're not worth talking to!

Get the cobwebs out of your head!

[Kevmo]

We have plenty of evidence, it’s all across the new testament. But what we don’t have is evidence that meets your completely irrational standard of history, a standard that no other historical figure would ever have been able to meet.

[boatbums]

So is it Jam yesterday, and jam tomorrow, but never jam today? All I want is an email. Is that too much for G-d?

Who do you think is being fooled by this? I doubt that even IF you got your email or phone call you would repent of your stubborn unbelief and return to the faith you once rejected. What happened in your life that injured your spirit so deeply you cast aside your faith and now live to draw as many others as you can to your faithless side?

Here's a poser for you:

The old adage, "Seeing is believing", doesn't work with Almighty God, instead, he says, "Believing is seeing.".

[Kevmo]

various things that they could not have witnessed, that are combined with things that are impossible.
***And they also wrote down very mundane things that are not in dispute, such as the fact that Jesus was put to death for claiming equality with God. Even the enemies of Christ acknowledged that claim.

Normally when the enemies and friendly witnesses all agree on certain facts, those facts are not in dispute. But your irrational standard is simply intended to weed out anything to do with Christianity. Since no other historical figure will ever meet such a standard, I conclude that you’re simply irrational. You’re not credible. You’re willfully arrogant about historicity, not honest. Matthew 7:6 applies to you.

[boatbums]

Oh, and this, too:

"An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and a sign will not be given it, except the sign of Jonah." And He left them and went away." (Matt. 16:4)

Now...what was the "sign of Jonah" again???

[Kevmo]

Now...what was the “sign of Jonah” again???
***There’s evidence written in stone that aligns with biblical sources on this topic.

People were posting christian symbols on their tombs before the year AD 70.

http://www.esgetology.com/2012/02/29/discovery-earliest-archeological-evidence-for-christianity/

[boatbums]

And we have from the testimony of Matthew, Mark, Peter, John various things that they could not have witnessed, that are combined with things that are impossible. Normally when a witness perjures, their testimony on all else is thrown out.

Your error is in presuming that because someone testifies to seeing miracles or about things you reject as "not possible" that they must be lying. I haven't seen your answer as to why these people would have wanted to "invent their own religion" - as you put it - when all that it brought on them was persecution, ostracization and execution - sometimes in the most brutal ways. Guys like L. Ron Hubbard invented his own religion and it made him a millionaire. Mohammad got his followers to conquer, loot and pillage entire countries for him. Tell me what, other than actually witnessing the teachings of Jesus Christ, his many miracle and his resurrection, would have motivated these people? Many people die for what is a lie, but NO ONE dies for what they KNOW is a lie.

I get the impression from reading your responses to the many challenges thrown your way that you probably never did have a personal relationship with the living God and that you have closed your heart to any evidence that might shake your basis for your rejection of Christianity. I probably won't spend anymore time discussing this with you but I AM praying for you and mean you no disrespect or animosity. I know, without a doubt, that the truth WILL be found when we search for it with all our heart.

[donmeaker]

I guess you are suggesting that I won’t be getting that email...

[donmeaker]

They all agree on some facts. Good for them. Still, “False in one, false in all.”

So after that, you subtract the witnesses that are proven fabulists. What is left is what you know.

[Kevmo]

Your standard for history is so stringent that not a single soul in history would meet the standard. Look at the title of this thread. Your position is utterly irrational.