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To: Ha Ha Thats Very Logical; Alamo-Girl; spirited irish; marron; YHAOS; MHGinTN; TXnMA; metmom; ...
Having chosen the word “bias,” you've introduced a sense of purpose, even though you refer to “non-intentional bias.” I don’t completely understand your statement that "there is no principle in pure chance that could lead to the fine tuning." Isn't there no principle in pure chance period, sort of by definition? It seems to me that if pure chance can lead to a particular outcome, it’s not in itself evidence of bias if it does lead to that outcome, no matter how unlikely the outcome is.

I think we need to revisit what we mean by pure chance, “bias,” and also the meaning of “S.” Regarding “S,” my definition — “the physical outcome as the effect of bias” — is trivially true but not complete, as a re-reading of White’s paper makes clear to me now.

Regarding chance: You asked, “Isn’t there no principle in pure chance, sort of by definition?” Yes, chance is by definition “unprincipled.” And yet, as Roger White observes,

Not so long ago, scientists suggested that the very earliest living organism was the result of a “chance collision of molecules” in a pre-biotic soup, where this was not meant to be incompatible with determinism. I think we have a good enough grip on what they had in mind: some simple molecules were shuffling about in the soup — much like shaking Lego pieces in a box — until they just happened to form a stable structure capable of reproduction. It is this kind of view that is being denied when contemporary theorists insist that life did not originate by chance.

However, White avers that today, “there is almost universal agreement that life did not first come about merely by chance.”

The view which is almost universally rejected by researchers in the field is that the numerous and prima facie improbable physical and biological requirements for life all fell together just by a fluke, like so many dice tumbling out of a bag and landing all sixes…. The conviction that life did not arise largely by chance [C] is treated as epistemically prior to the development of alternative theories [i.e., it is the foundational premise that motivates their research in the first place and “even if their theories are shown to be false, they would retain this basic assumption”]…. The suggestion that the origin of life might be due to any kind of purposeful agency [BI] is not considered as a serious option, and does not play any explicit role in theorizing…. The kind of explanations of life’s emergence that scientists look for appeal to ordinary physical properties, forces, and laws [BN], having nothing to do with the purposes of any agent.

Now, both BN and BI are forms of bias— in effect, against the C hypothesis. I believe this is what White means by “bias” — nothing more, nothing less. From either form of bias we would expect to see “a kind of robustness or stability” that is absent from C, acting on S, here redefined as the actual state of affairs that we observe. But science finds BI inadmissible as a form of bias, on grounds that it is “unscientific.”

So science is left with BN. According to Manfred Eigen,

The physical principle that we are looking for should be in a position to explain the complexity typical of the phenomena of life at the level of molecular structures and syntheses. It should show how such complex molecular arrangements are able to form reproducibly in Nature.
According to Christian de Duve,

… unless one adopts a creationist view … life arose through the succession of an enormous number of small steps, almost each of which, given the conditions at the time had a very high probability of happening … the alternative amounts to a miracle … were [the emergence of life] not an obligatory manifestation of the combinatorial properties of matter, it could not possibly have arisen naturally.

White wants to assess whether there is a “very high probability” that the requisite number of “very small steps” are the result of a non-intentional cause (BN). Or whether an intentional cause (BI) is the better explanation. He writes,

Does the fact that certain values are necessary for life make them more likely to be favored by laws? … While there is at least room to argue that a rational agent is likely to influence the physical parameters [“fine tunings” attributable to necessary yet arbitrary universal physical constants that must exist in order for life to occur] in order to allow for the evolution of life, to suppose that impersonal physical laws are likely to constrain the constants in this way can only be based on a confused anthropomorphism.

He concludes that “Blind physical laws [(BN] are no more naturally drawn toward states of affairs with value than blind chance is.”

In assessing the probabilities of BN and BI, White relies on the methods of Bayesian statistics. According to José M. Bernardo of the University of Valencia,

Statistics is the study of uncertainty. Bayesian statistical methods provide a complete paradigm for both statistical inference and decision making under uncertainty. Bayesian methods are firmly based on strict mathematical foundations, providing a coherent methodology which makes it possible to incorporate relevant initial information, and which solves many of the difficulties faced by conventional statistical methods. The Bayesian paradigm is based on an interpretation of probability as a conditional measure of uncertainty which closely matches the use of the word ‘probability’ in ordinary language. Statistical inference about a quantity of interest is described as the modification of the uncertainty about its value in the light of evidence, and Bayes’ theorem specifies how this modification should be made. Bayesian methods may be applied to complex, richly structured problems, which have been fairly inaccessible to traditional statistical methods. The special situation, often met in scientific reporting and public decision making, where the only acceptable information is that which may be deduced from available documented data, is addressed as an important particular case. [Itals added]

So, what does “a conditional measure of uncertainty” mean? The mathematical notation for this is

P(A | B)

which translates into English as “the probability of event A occurring given that B occurs.”

White is asking whether P(S | BI) is more likely than P(S | BN) to explain what we actually observe about the evolution of S. As noted above, he sees little practical difference between C and BN; so he opts for BI.

In general, if BI raises the likelihood of S, then S confirms BI to at least some degree, and may thereby disconfirm C. But it does not follow that S confirms BN one iota. S confirms BN only if BN raises the likelihood of S.

Which it doesn't appear to do.

I hope this further explanation helps.

You wrote:

It’s like (analogy alert!) one fish arguing that the fishbowl is so well suited to living that an external agency must have designed it that way, and another fish saying no, that’s just the way goldfish bowls are. From outside the bowl, of course, we know which is true; but I don’t think there's anything the fish could do from inside the bowl to determine it one way or the other.

Forgive me if I think this analogy is a tad weak. For it puts fish and humans on the same “footing.” True, both are living beings. But of the two, only man is self-conscious, only man is capable of apperception. That is to say, man is aware, not only of events occurring in the "outside world" via perception, but of subjective. mental events as well, especially the internal processes of rational analysis that occur “inside his head.” There are psychologists who suggest that there is order and structure in apperception itself. A fish presumably is capable of perception. But no fish has a rational mind that possesses such structure.

Thank you dear HHTVL for your correspondence on these issues! You ask great questions, and “hold my feet to the fire” with graciousness that I much appreciate. Please forgive me for running on so long.

64 posted on 07/22/2013 1:54:51 PM PDT by betty boop
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To: betty boop; Ha Ha Thats Very Logical; Alamo-Girl; spirited irish; marron; MHGinTN; TXnMA; metmom
As an acknowledged person unschooled in Science, may I observe for your critical view that the Darwinian idea of Evolution has experienced a turn in fortunes these past dozen or so years, and that we may discover the pursuit of knowledge (that is, of data accumulation and the thinking on it that turns data into knowledge) has begun to illustrate that the limitations of the Theory of Evolution may be similar to the experience Mankind underwent with respect to Newtonian Physics (that is, that it applies only in certain circumstances and is not applicable universally).

In fact, it appears that the Darwinian Theory of Evolution is no more than another way of describing the readily observable and obvious Theory of Natural Selection.

65 posted on 07/22/2013 3:58:22 PM PDT by YHAOS
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To: betty boop
Thank you as well. You've obviously read widely and spent a lot of time thinking about these issues, so I have an opportunity to learn something even if I have doubts about it.

However, White avers that today, “there is almost universal agreement that life did not first come about merely by chance.”

I guess in this and the subsequent discussion, I'm not sure what he means by "merely by chance." And I'd like to know what the researchers in the field who "amost univerally reject" the idea of chance, mean by it. If in fact B_N is the correct explanation--if, in de Duve's words, the emergence of life is "an obligatory manifestation of the combinatorial properties of matter"--how do we distinguish it from chance? What does chance mean, if not something consonant with the properties of matter? In fact, if an occurrence doesn't reflect the properties of matter, didn't almost by definition not occur by chance?

Sorry, analogy alert again: Consider water. How likely is it that two hydrogen atoms should come together with an oxygen atom "by chance"? Not very, I should think--except for the way it's "an obligatory manifestation of the combinatorial properties of matter."

...to suppose that impersonal physical laws are likely to constrain the constants in this way can only be based on a confused anthropomorphism. He concludes that “Blind physical laws [(BN] are no more naturally drawn toward states of affairs with value than blind chance is.”

It seems to me that he's the one afflicted with anthropomorphism. Who says life has value? We do, of course. But who says the universe shares that assessment?

Forgive me if I think this analogy is a tad weak. For it puts fish and humans on the same “footing.” True, both are living beings. But of the two, only man is self-conscious, only man is capable of apperception.

True. But our self-consciousness is also in the fishbowl. IF "life arose through the succession of an enormous number of small steps, almost each of which, given the conditions at the time had a very high probability of happening," and IF self-consciousness is an emergent property of life once it has developed to a certain point, then can our internal processes really access anything outside the physical laws of the universe?

Bear in mind that I think there are a lot of physical laws we just haven't discovered yet that will prove to be the explanation for many of the things we now consider "supernatural" or "extrasensory."

66 posted on 07/22/2013 6:35:25 PM PDT by Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
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