Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

To: Sherman Logan; Pelham; rmlew; dennisw

You said in your original post that Jews were not targeted as Jews in Communist Russia and then in response to my reply stated they were “sometimes used as scapegoats.

Well, if they were Scapegoats then they were certainly scapegoats because they were Jews...hence...they were purged for being Jews and enemies of the state as such for being precisely that

and at times associated with Stalin’s enemies rightly or wrongly

There are reams of writings of Soviet purges of Jews

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin_and_antisemitism

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/125203/surviving-stalins-purges

http://globalfire.tv/nj/03en/history/stalin.htm

I know you. Your main thing here is fingering what you think is racism...and I having been a target of that know well enough.

I can only surmise you wish to believe the Nazis whom you see as Uber Nationalist white racists were worse to Jews than the Commies of whom at first at least counted many Jews in the revolutions.

Well...I agree...the Nazis were worse but just barely..and some would argue maybe not.

But that logic that Jews were not persecuted by the powers in the Soviet Union after Lenin died is just poppycock frankly and given you write lucid enough should know better.

Jews suffered under the Tsars and then allied with the new collectivist powers largely and damn if they didn’t get chewed up again...and all for being Jewish or like you said to some degree....scapegoats as Jews...being guilty of association with other Jewish segments like those under Trotsky.

Stalin had a real thing against Jews...maybe as a Georgian...but he feared any influence they could gain distinctly as Jews and authorized the killing of many many indiscriminately.

He spoke to his confidants of the “Jewish Menace” to his power consolidation as well as any Final Solution sort to his west


24 posted on 05/18/2013 9:32:36 AM PDT by wardaddy (wanna know how my kin felt during Reconstruction in Mississippi, you fixin to find out firsthand)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies ]


To: wardaddy
Methinks you have a difficult time understanding the concept of degree.

My original comment was on the author's statement that he was attempting to refute "the false notion that the Soviet Union was somehow preferable to Nazi Germany."

I'm about the last person you could possibly call a fan or apologist for communism or USSR or Stalin, but the Soviet Union was indeed "preferable to Nazi Germany" for many groups, notably Russians, Ukrainians and Jews.

Here's an analogy. There are 10M people in group A. Government B will, given the chance, kill 6M of Group A simply because of who they are. Government C will oppress Group A (along with everyone else in its power), but will kill probably at most under 1M of them, and then (mostly) for other reasons than their membership in Group A. I think Government C, while being no picnic, is by any objective standard preferable for Group A than is Government B.

When the Germans invaded Ukraine, they were greeted with flowers and cheering crowds. Within weeks or months the people of these regions had discovered Stalin, even as horrible as he was, was indeed "preferable" to Hitler, and they switched sides back.

I do not claim that Jews were not persecuted in USSR, only that they were not a primary focus of Stalin. A great many Jews who died were killed in the Great Purge, and were killed not because they were Jews but because they were longtime commies and Stalin was killing off anybody who might potentially be a political threat. IOW, they were killed because they lost a factional fight within communism, not for being (racial) Jews. This group had obviously abandoned religious Judaism long before.

You could get killed in Stalin's Russia for a host of reasons, and those reasons probably sometimes included being Jewish. But it is just silly to therefore claim that USSR was "not somehow preferable" to Nazi Germany for Jews. Of course it was, as sad as it is that they were given such a horrible choice of evils.

I do indeed see Nazis "as Uber Nationalist white racists." That is because that is precisely what they were, and damn proud of it. Though "Aryan/Germanic racists" is more accurate than "white racists," since they excluded large segments of the "white race," notably the Jews and Slavs (which is very odd, since the Slavs are one sub-group of Aryans).

If you're trying to lump me in with those who consider American conservatives to be white racists or right-wing in the European original sense of the term, you're barking up a very wrong tree. American conservatism, properly understood, has nothing at all to do with either the European left or the European right, aspects of which were combined to form Fascism and Nazism.

26 posted on 05/18/2013 10:07:08 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies ]

To: wardaddy

Doctors’ plot was a culmination of Stalin’s anti-Jewish campaign. It has actually started with the cases of “Jewish antifascist counsil” and “ Zionist conspiracy within (M)KGB”.
Both cases were retaliation on people supporting Israel (primarily within Czech communist party, KGB and Soviet air forces), thus second case was also another Stalin’s paranoid purge in the first place.
It is not heavily advertised fact but Soviets did a lot of work to make Israel happen. An idea was heavily opposed by UK, FDR was against it as well in terms of solidarity with Churchill, but Soviets has pulled it backed by Jewish intellectuals in US.
“Jewish antifascist counsil” were community organizers working for Soviet cause in the West during WWII. Their mission was fundraising, pushing for lend-lease, providing good press for the Soviets etc. In return Soviets promised them to help in establishing a Jewish state in Palestine.
Under pressure from inside US government has finally backed it too.
Both British authorities and Arabs were unimpressed to say the least but Soviets has started pouring captured German weapons via Czechs and provided training like they do in 3rd world now.
The problem is Israel hasn’t come further kibbutz with socialism and started to lean towards the West since the very beginning.
Stalin thought it was a betrayal and went mad. Everyone involved was declared a pro-US conspirator. Jewish counsil was first to get purged, next came the Czech government used as cover for Soviet support of Israel, next came Air Force and KGB training Israel’s airmen, intelligence and special forces.
It was actually a start of blatant Soviet antisemitism, before 1947 you could probably have a death sentence for an antisemitic joke in Moscow.
I also firmly believe it was what finally killed Stalin. It was one thing to purge Soviet military before WWII but absolutely different with “Zionist KGB” and Jewish doctors. These groups certainly had teeth to bite back.


27 posted on 05/18/2013 8:06:39 PM PDT by cunning_fish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson