2013 FORMULA 1 PETRONAS MALAYSIA GRAND PRIX - LIVE THREAD

3/22/2013 | Chode

[Chode]

Kuala Lumpur Formula 1

Race Date:	24 Mar 2013
Circuit Name:	Sepang International Circuit
First Grand Prix:	1999
Number of Laps:	56
Circuit Length:	5.543 km
Race Distance:	310.408 km
Lap Record:	1:34.223 - JP Montoya (2004)
Fri Rain 33C Sat Rain 32C Sun Rain 32C

[truth_seeker]

Drivers are employees. Their contracts almost certain include agreement to follow team orders.

The team ordered both drivers to conserve their cars, hold position, and take one-two.

Webber SLOWED to follow team orders. He did not do so in the spirit he was STILL RACING with Vettel.

Vettel, on the other hand, took UNFAIR advantage of Webber slowing. He has admitted he was in the wrong.

I have no idea what type of racing you did. F1 is a sport with history, tradition, and drivers form a fraternity, so to speak.

If the team ordered hold, but BOTH drivers ignored it and continued to race hard, it would be one thing. That would be a FAIR RACE.

Vettel’s win is tainted in the eyes of almost everybody watching.

But you are free to have your opinion. I agree to disagree, agreeably.

[Wurlitzer]

This is one driver who would never sign an agreement to hold back for anything other than mechanical issues.

To do so is dishonest and we have enough dishonesty in everyday life.

To follow the “team orders” excuse would have precluded F1 fans from viewing a great battle between two great drivers and NOTHING is gained for the sport by preventing the fans and advertisers from that level of competition.

Were I running F1, such team orders for things other than mechanical would be banned with stiff penalties for any violation. We have seen it with deliberate spin outs to bring out cautions or blocking and that is not clean racing.

Racing unfortunately has always had a cloud of dishonesty over it be it some crew chief thinking they can skirt the rules or an owner playing with which car gets certain parts. None of that helps the sport.

I want to see passionate drivers willing to push their cars to the absolute limit without, if possible, taking out another team mate. Had Vettel and Webber touched this debate might take a different tact.

So, if Vettel followed the CHEAT order would Webber have really WON the race. NO.

By the way, I like Webber over Vettel but have to admit, Vettel is the man to beat and if I were a team owner he would be the man I would try and get in the cockpit.

[Wurlitzer]

I just noticed the lap record holder at the top of the thread:
1:34.223 - JP Montoya (2004)

My, how far Montoya has fallen.

[jps098]

What Red Bull was attempting was to save the Engine for later in the year. Since the engines cannot be rebuilt, and if Seb has this engine blow later in the year, he will be reminded he should have dialed it back like he was told.

I preferred the days when Senna had an engine rebuilt just for qualifying, but then again, I was not paying the bill.

[nascarnation]

My, how far Montoya has fallen.

I suspect if you asked him, he'd say he's enjoying every minute.

[Wurlitzer]

“I suspect if you asked him, he’d say he’s enjoying every minute.”

---

That may be true but success is certainly eluding him.

In reality, having achieved F1 status, tells me JPM is an Alpha personality and finishing so few races on the lead lap cannot be fun.

[Wurlitzer]

Yes jps098, saving the engine makes sense but only after you let the fastest car/driver do his thing then both could dial it back. This was not like Vettel was 10 seconds back and had to push real hard for 5-8 laps.

One or two laps of competitive driving in a 56 lap race to sort things out should not create a team crisis.

The telemetry was clear for almost the entire race, minus a few time when tire selection came into play that Vettel was faster than Webber.

Again, I would have preferred Webber to be faster but that was certainly not the case.

[Chode]

from what i understand 1) the driver is paid to see the "TEAM" win first, them second and 2) Webber WAS following "Team Orders" so for Seb to pass him and chance taking out the whole team was not the best idea...

like it or not this is F1, and it's all about the TEAM first, Driver second... no Team no driver

though i DO understand the point of non-scripted driving and On the Limit Racing, they are still paid to do a JOB, and if you hazard the team the Team for Self-Gratification, well...

in that case, Seb shoulda told Webber he was coming for him and lei him decide if he wanted to turn the wick up or not

[Doogle]

and paid well.....

[henkster]

In a racing series where the teams can make whatever changes to the car they want to before the next race, and have unlimited equipment, sure. Tell your boys to have at each other. But in F1, they have to save the car for the next race. The 1-2 finish was in the bag, don’t screw it up, and the next race, by racing each other. The team orders made all the sense in the world.

For Vettel to disregard the orders without notice was nothing but a sucker punch to his teammate. He is the most talented driver on the circuit and has a lot of passion for the sport. But my opinion of him has dropped a notch and it’s going to take a lot more than “I’m sorry” to make up for it.

I’d feel different if there hadn’t been the order to keep position, but that didn’t happen.

[jeffc]

But in F1, they have to save the car for the next race.

This is the point wurlitzer is making, that these kinds of rules, although implemented to help keep costs down, are making for boring races, turning who wins into more of a team strategy thing instead of the drivers abilities. That makes for boring races. IMO, too many races now are decided in the pits with who has the quicker, more timely, pit stops. I want to see wheel-to-wheel racing!

Sure, if a guy is way ahead near the end, he'll slow up a bit. Not enough for anyone to catch him, but once he's assured of the win, coast it on home, I say.

[Chode]

100%

[henkster]

I think F1 has done a good job creating more wheel-to-wheel racing, and the best thing they ever did was the DRS. We are getting good battles for position through the field and the DRS lets a superior car get around a slower car. Five years ago, it was follow the (slower) leader and it was boring because nobody could get around them. So I can’t say F1 promotes a boring product. As usual with them, they resort to a technological solution. There is still room for a driver to make a difference, like Kimi’s move at Spa last year.

As far as races being decided in the pits, the only race I saw decided in the pits Sunday was Farce India’s clown crew. That was a disaster. But I do think pit strategy has to be part of victory, along with the car and the driver.

The bottom line is that the Team Principal has to try to win within the rules, and if that means you tell your drivers to dog it when the race is in the bag, that’s what you do.

[nascarnation]

I just watched it on DVR. Man what a p!ssy bunch on the podium. Well at least we got a couple good views of Scherzinger....

[Chode]

i feel just the opposite about the DRS... to me, it simply seems to take two equally matched cars and penalize the car in front, but that's just me

[Chode]

yup, the look on her face when Lew pulled into the McLaren pit was priceless...

[nascarnation]

Maybe they should make it like Indycar push to pass where you only get a certain number of “boosts” per race.

[jeffc]

I think F1 has done a good job creating more wheel-to-wheel racing, and the best thing they ever did was the DRS. We are getting good battles for position through the field and the DRS lets a superior car get around a slower car.

I am not convinced of this. Sure, cars can more easily pass each other, but it is not the same as a slip-stream. With DRS, you are always 10-15 MPH faster than the car ahead. With the old slip-stream way, once out from behind the car you are passing, you slow rapidly, so you have to time your pass correctly. Also, I must laugh at the DRS and KERS as, to me, they are just as much 'drivers aids' as the ABS and Traction Control outlawed by the FIA years ago. At least a case could be made that ABS and TC were safety devices.

As far as races being decided in the pits, the only race I saw decided in the pits Sunday was Farce India’s clown crew. That was a disaster. But I do think pit strategy has to be part of victory, along with the car and the driver.

I see many F1 races, or at least many positions (not all for the lead), decided in the pits. Sure pit strategy is an important element in racing (or should be. Forget WTCC and the like for their short sprint races: BORING!!)

The bottom line is that the Team Principal has to try to win within the rules, and if that means you tell your drivers to dog it when the race is in the bag, that’s what you do.

Agreed.

[Chode]

limiting the number might not be a bad idea... or let the lead car use it at the same time to defend, it just doesn't seem right to me to get passed by giving the second car an advantage and not be able to do anything to stop it other than blocking

[Chode]

Lew stopping in the wrong pitbox...

hi guys... how ya been???OOOOPS!!!