Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

To: familyop

I used to think so too, until I took his class, and he has good reasons for it!

The use of force, and the instruments of that force, must be defensible in the event you end up in court (which is more likely than not, given the propensity for “wrongful death” suits these days). The steps you take in advance of such an occurrence will make the difference between freedom and imprisonment/impoverishment. It will be up to you to educate the jury and bring them up to understanding whether a reasonable man, knowing what you know, would do what you did in that particular set of circumstances.

Factory ammo is known quantity, and goes through a defined and documented quality control process - handloads don’t. Manufacturers do that for liability purposes, besides which customers seem to prefer a consistently-performing product. Does the average handloader run a statistically significant portion of each lot to determine velocity, penetration, expansion, etc.? I sure as heck don’t, and I reload 500-1000 rounds a month. Maybe the high-speed rifle competition guys do.

The factory ammo can be obtained by investigators and fired to determine/verify distances, expansion, and other characteristics to which the defendant (you) may attest during your questioning.

Some Prosecutors all but lick their chops when handloads are involved - “he loaded SUPER-HOT ammo - he wasn’t satisfied with regular velocity store-bought stuff! - he’s a crazed killer just looking to blow someone away!” That will do wonders to your credibility with the jury and the press, regardless of your protestations to the contrary.

Granted, factory self-defense ammo is not cheap. Handloaders can build practice loads that approximate velocities and recoil for their favorite factory loads if high-volume practice is needed/desired. Nonetheless, occasionally running some of your carry ammo into the training mix will (a) clear out the old inventory (and a(nother) reason to go to the gun store), and (b) provide an opportunity to train with and to document training with the “real stuff”. Anticipate the questions: “What is your experience with this particular firearm & ammunition combination?” “When did you last fire this type of ammunition, and under what circumstances?” - document when, where, and how you trained and what you shot in a shooter’s log book.

As Mas is a renowned expert witness in self-defense legal proceedings, you might consider re-visiting your position...myself, I would avoid giving the opposition any more ammo (pun intended) for their purposes...


4 posted on 10/05/2012 9:09:43 PM PDT by castlebrew (Gun Control means hitting where you're aiming!))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies ]


To: castlebrew

Show a case where use of handloads made the difference between guilt and innocence.


5 posted on 10/05/2012 10:04:28 PM PDT by familyop ("Wanna cigarette? You're never too young to start." --Deacon, "Waterworld")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies ]

To: castlebrew
"Some Prosecutors all but lick their chops...'he...SUPER-HOT...he wasn’t satisfied...blow someone...!'"

That wouldn't surprise us. [Little humor there.]

"That will do wonders to your credibility with the jury and the press, regardless of your protestations to the contrary."

[More sincerely...] My credibility depends on what I do and say--not what others say.

Hysteria should be avoided in judicial work and in self-defense. Logic, study and experience in physical interactions are better. We shouldn't be making way for constitutional violations.

I carried evil Talons on duty long ago. The public arguments against those were no more or less irrelevant than the arguments against handloads. My handloads are more accurate and proven than commercial loads. More expensive, too (also irrelevant). ;-)


6 posted on 10/05/2012 10:26:19 PM PDT by familyop ("Wanna cigarette? You're never too young to start." --Deacon, "Waterworld")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies ]

To: castlebrew

The argument that handloads give any prosecutor a leg up in your prosecution is moot. No case has ever been decided on the basis of whether handloads or factory loads were used. Ayoob’s citations have been researched by handloading lawyers and were found to be without merit in regards to his argument.

Juries understand that whatever is in the gun at the moment is the bullet that is going to be used. Reloading at the point of the fight with factory loads would be foolish and would get you killed.

Pistols are very limited by engineering in there ability to carry a “super hot load”. .45 caliber (.452) is limited to 14,000 Psi and if you exceed that number the gun may blow up in your face either on the next shot or down the road after the gun has been weakened by the over pressures.

Speaking for the handloading community I can tell you that we are all paranoid in the extreme concerning loading super hot loads by accident and we go to great lengths to try to eliminate it because it could cost us our life or the life of a family member or the life of a stranger in the slot next to us at the shooting range. At the least it might thoroughly wreck a gun rendering it a paperweight and a reminder that screams “Don’t do this again!”.

Ayoob is highly respected in many quarters but not in the reloading community. He is regarded as a fool who is not sufficiently knowledgeable to be instructing others in this particular aspect of shooting.

My own bone to pick with him is that he has merged and confused the difference between tactical shooting and defensive shooting. To review the difference:

Tactical shooting is many times a drawn out affair with multiple magazines being loaded into the pistol. Distances are as far as 40 or so feet. Occasionally further. Large quantities of ammo are required and back up is always welcome. The gunfight may be several minutes in duration.

Objective of Tactical Shooting: To end the fight.

Defensive shooting occurs at distances of 10 to 15 feet and only 3 to 5 shots are fired. There is no backup available. The encounter lasts less than ten seconds and most likely will be about 5 seconds in duration.

The objective of Defensive Shooting: To keep the perp from making the next shot.

These are very different objectives and for my money the most effective method of meeting the objective for defensive shooting is to use a .45, either ACP or Long Colt. A .45 Long Colt loaded with a 250 grain bullet traveling 700 feet per second is quite effective on a perp at 15 feet and was also used to put down an out of control horse at close range. This is in no way a hot load but is the classic load for the .45 Long Colt, the black powder load equivalent for the day to day shooting needs of the Cowboy.

My own .45 LC reloads are quite mild but they would be effective on a perp at close range. Pretty much lights out on the first shot. Which is as it should be. He would not make another shot. Objective met.


11 posted on 10/06/2012 11:48:48 AM PDT by buffaloguy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies ]

To: castlebrew

“Some Prosecutors all but lick their chops when handloads are involved “

There hasn’t been a single case of that happening, therefore, that statement is a bold faced lie often repeated by those wanting to sound authoritative on the subject of firearms.


19 posted on 10/07/2012 1:18:20 PM PDT by CodeToad (Padme: "So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson