Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

To: eekitsagreek
The problem is with the basic laws of mathematics and probability, with which evolution is essentially incompatible. The (proportionally) biggest group of people not buying into evoloserism is mathematicians, and not Christians.

The best illustration of how stupid evolutionism really is involves trying to become some totally new animal with new organs, a new basic plan for existence, and new requirements for integration between both old and new organs.

Take flying birds for example; suppose you aren't one, and you want to become one. You'll need a baker's dozen highly specialized systems, including wings, flight feathers, a system for pivoting flight feathers so that they open on up strokes and close on down strokes, a specialized light bone structure, specialized flow-through lungs and a high efficiency heart, a specialized tail, specialized general balance parameters, a beak (since you won't have hands any more...) etc. etc. etc.

For starters, every one of these things would be antifunctional until the day on which the whole thing came together, so that the chances of evolving any of these things by any process resembling evolution (mutations plus selection) would amount to an infinitessimal, i.e. one divided by some gigantic number.

In probability theory, to compute the probability of two things happening at once, you multiply the probabilities together. That says that the likelihood of all these things ever happening at once (which is what you'd need), best case, is ten or twelve such infinitessimals multiplied together, i.e. a tenth or twelth-order infinitessimal. The whole history of the universe isn't long enough for that to happen once.

All of that was the best case. For the pieces of being a flying bird to evolve piecemeal would be much harder. In real life, natural selection could not plausibly select for hoped-for functionality, which is what would be required in order to evolve flight feathers on something which could not fly apriori. In real life, all you'd ever get would some sort of a random walk around some starting point, rather than the unidircetional march towards a future requirement which evolution requires.

And the real killer, i.e. the thing which simply kills evolutionism dead, is the following consideration: In real life, assuming you were to somehow miraculously evolve the first feature you'd need to become a flying bird, then by the time another 10,000 generations rolled around and you evolved the second such reature, the first, having been disfunctional/antifunctional all the while, would have DE-EVOLVED and either disappeared altogether or become vestigial.

Now, it would be miraculous if, given all the above, some new kind of complex creature with new organs and a new basic plan for life had ever evolved ONCE.

Evolutionism, however (the Theory of Evolution) requires that this has happened countless billions of times, i.e. an essentially infinite number of absolutely zero probability events.

And, if you were starting to think that nothing could possibly be any stupider than believing in evolution despite all of the above (i.e. that the basic stupidity of evolutionism starting from 1980 or thereabouts could not possibly be improved upon), think again. Because there is zero evidence in the fossil record to support any sort of a theory involving macroevolution, and because the original conceptions of evolution are flatly refuted by developments in population genetics since the 1950's, the latest incarnation of this theory, Steve Gould and Niles Eldredge's "Punctuated Equilibrium or punc-eek" attempts to claim that these wholesale violations of probabilistic laws all occurred so suddenly as to never leave evidence in the fossil record, and that they all occurred amongst tiny groups of animals living in "peripheral" areas. That says that some velocirapter who wanted to be a bird got together with fifty of his friends and said:

Guys, we need flight feathers, and wings, and specialized bones, hearts, lungs, and tails, and we need em NOW; not two years from now. Everybody ready, all together now:
OOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

You could devise a new religion by taking the single stupidest doctrine from each of the existing religions, and it would not be as stupid as THAT.

But it gets even stupider.

Again, the original Darwinian vision of gradualistic evolution is flatly refuted by the fossil record (Darwinian evolution demanded that the vast bulk of ALL fossils be intermediates) and by the findings of population genetics, particularly the Haldane dilemma and the impossible time requirements for spreading genetic changes through any sizeable herd of animals.

Consider what Gould and other punk-eekers are saying. Punc-eek amounts to a claim that all meaningful evolutionary change takes place in peripheral areas, amongst tiny groups of animals which develop some genetic advantage, and then move out and overwhelm, outcompete, and replace the larger herds. They are claiming that this eliminates the need to spread genetic change through any sizeable herd of animals and, at the same time, is why we never find intermediate fossils (since there are never enough of these CHANGELINGS to leave fossil evidence).

Obvious problems with punctuated equilibria include, minimally:

1. It is a pure pseudoscience seeking to explain and actually be proved by a lack of evidence rather than by evidence (all the missing intermediate fossils). Similarly, Cotton Mather claimed that the fact that nobody had ever seen or heard a witch was proof they were there (if you could SEE them, they wouldn't BE witches...) This kind of logic is less inhibiting than the logic they used to teach in American schools.

2. PE amounts to a claim that inbreeding is the most major source of genetic advancement in the world. Apparently Steve Gould never saw Deliverance...

3. PE requires these tiny peripheral groups to conquer vastly larger groups of animals millions if not billions of times, which is like requiring Custer to win at the little Big Horn every day, for millions of years.

4. PE requires an eternal victory of animals specifically adapted to localized and parochial conditions over animals which are globally adapted, which never happens in real life.

5. For any number of reasons, you need a minimal population of any animal to be viable. This is before the tiny group even gets started in overwhelming the vast herds. A number of American species such as the heath hen became non-viable when their numbers were reduced to a few thousand; at that point, any stroke of bad luck at all, a hard winter, a skewed sex ratio in one generation, a disease of some sort, and it's all over. The heath hen was fine as long as it was spread out over the East coast of the U.S. The point at which it got penned into one of these "peripheral" areas which Gould and Eldredge see as the salvation for evolutionism, it was all over.

The sort of things noted in items 3 and 5 are generally referred to as the "gambler's problem", in this case, the problem facing the tiny group of "peripheral" animals being similar to that facing a gambler trying to beat the house in blackjack or roulette; the house could lose many hands of cards or rolls of the dice without flinching, and the globally-adapted species spread out over a continent could withstand just about anything short of a continental-scale catastrophe without going extinct, while two or three bad rolls of the dice will bankrupt the gambler, and any combination of two or three strokes of bad luck will wipe out the "peripheral" species. Gould's basic method of handling this problem is to ignore it.

And there's one other thing which should be obvious to anybody attempting to read through Gould and Eldridge's BS:

The don't even bother to try to provide a mechanism or technical explaination of any sort for this "punk-eek"

They are claiming that at certain times, amongst tiny groups of animals living in peripheral areas, a "speciation event(TM)" happens, and THEN the rest of it takes place. In other words, they are saying:

ASSUMING that Abracadabra-Shazaam(TM) happens, then the rest of the business proceeds as we have described in our scholarly discourse above!

Again, Gould and Eldridge require that the Abracadabra-Shazaam(TM) happen not just once, but countless billions of times, i.e. at least once for every kind of complex creature which has ever walked the Earth. They do not specify whether this amounts to the same Abracadabra-Shazaam each time, or a different kind of Abracadabra-Shazaam for each creature.

4 posted on 05/26/2012 9:58:18 PM PDT by varmintman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]


To: varmintman
Superb, Blown away! Outstanding!

I have often thought the same thing about Darwinism and evolution. It requires significantly more faith in the unprovable than a belief in a creator of some sort. To think that out right chance occurred hundreds of trillions of times throughout the history of the Universe is hard to accept.

18 posted on 05/26/2012 11:46:45 PM PDT by Jim from C-Town (The government is rarely benevolent, often malevolent and never benign!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies ]

To: varmintman

That was ‘awesome’. Will read again after coffee.

Have to wonder if these ‘scientists’ have observed the most recent form of human evolution: smaller brains and larger bodies;)

Acknowledgement of the Creator is compatible with our sense of wonder, humility, love of nature, creativity, poetry, language, charity toward others, familial loyalties and all the other attributes that have elevated the human conscience. Elevation is evolution.....but it began with God.


29 posted on 05/27/2012 3:21:46 AM PDT by sodpoodle
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies ]

To: varmintman
The best illustration of how stupid evolutionism really is involves trying to become some totally new animal with new organs, a new basic plan for existence, and new requirements for integration between both old and new organs.

Take flying birds for example; suppose you aren't one, and you want to become one. You'll need a baker's dozen highly specialized systems, including wings, flight feathers, a system for pivoting flight feathers so that they open on up strokes and close on down strokes, a specialized light bone structure, specialized flow-through lungs and a high efficiency heart, a specialized tail, specialized general balance parameters, a beak (since you won't have hands any more...) etc. etc. etc.

One of the biggest fallacies that anti-scientists try to use to "discredit" evolution is that organisms sprang up in their modern form from basically nothing. In fact, that description of evolution sounds more like the biblical story of Genesis--where God commanded all the plants, and then all the animals, to pop up from the mud, and they did. The idea that any scientist would believe that a dog would give birth to a non-dog, and that is how evolution happens is nonsense.

Evolution takes place one small change at a time. You can look at the process of evolution without ever looking at the fossil record: living examples of organisms at every evolutionary step along the way exist right now, from bacteria to colony-forming Euglena, to slime molds, to simple hydras, to mollusks, etc. Many people have noticed that children often do not look exactly like their parents, although they can be quite similar: that is an illustration of evolution in action.

47 posted on 05/27/2012 6:32:45 AM PDT by exDemMom (Now that I've finally accepted that I'm living a bad hair life, I'm more at peace with the world.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies ]

To: varmintman

That was pretty good. You are describing a concept popularly known as “irreducible complexity”. Here is a pretty good, easy to read piece on the concept that just ALMOST avoids mentioning the words “Intelligent Design”. http://www.ideacenter.org

I’m constantly on the lookout for a succinct description of irreducible complexity that stands a chance of penetrating the current intellectually fashionable belief armor my brother has assumed. What I need is a well written and inarguable summary that doesn’t mention anything to do with a creator or I.D., and in no way even remotely attacks the evolutionists’ dogma in any way. Something a die-hard evolutionist would read to the end without ever being given the opportunity to argue the logic.

Yours came very close to being ideal.


64 posted on 05/27/2012 8:19:29 AM PDT by misanthrope ("...Everybody look what's goin' down.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies ]

To: varmintman
Great answer concise and to the point of why evolution can't be possible.
I'll try to bump your answer later.

Here's a link to a Dr. Chuck Missler Utube video that destroys the evolutionist lies with many, many, different settled Scientific facts.
Learn the Bible in 24 Hours - part 2 Creation and the Fall of Man.avi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OERfbneTUEc&feature=BFa&list=UL_3a13brRV9Y

Have you thought of posting your response at S.F. Gates website?

If you don't believe in evolution, a posted, rational, argument against that nonsense, might help out a person who may be sitting on the fence.

Or you may at least have others read it at SF Gate that are willing to consider a different world view.

In any case thanks for taking the time to post this response to that foolishness.

241 posted on 06/05/2012 8:58:18 AM PDT by jokar (The Church age is the only age man will be able to glorify Christ, http://www.basictraining.org/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson