Replies

your comments, are scattered throughout the posts of the people i suggested. as are Longbow, Steel, etc.
(who i noticed you don’t bother to mention... only yourself.)
so, i have no doubt, in any of the posters that i recommended, that your view would be fairly represented.

and both Longbow and Steel, i disagree with, but respect. i have no problem with scholarly disagreement.
but often i think you (and especially others like El Sordo), get very mean-spirited and vicious.
People like Butterdizillion and Satindoll are patriots, not crackpots, and deserve respect, even if you disagree with them.
...i have never seen an article by you, only criticisms. (if i missed them, i am sorry. but again, in any sample, your views are very often present.) I endorse people i think add to the debate. And i think the curving letters linked in post #28, is definitive. you don’t. we disagree. I respect that you have much greater technical knowledge than i do. and you write much better. and yes, some of the points, like the “face” in the signature, i even think are silly. but, even things like the lack of left margins, and tabs, in his LFBC, compared to all the other samples we have, add up to a very large pot of fraud.
and the missing page 11 from the divorce records, the missing early years of SAD’s passport files, missing kindergarden records, etc., and MANY MANY more, are too much for coincidence. it’s enemy action. someone has been scrubbing and hiding. i simply want to know WHAT. and i truly wish you, with your superior skills, would HELP !!! ...you could actually make a real difference, in the future of our country. i have no doubt there is a coverup. and that it will eventually come out. but probably too late. YOU could change that.

Thanks, Elendur, for your reply.

your comments, are scattered throughout the posts of the people i suggested. as are Longbow, Steel, etc. (who i noticed you don’t bother to mention... only yourself.)

You already mentioned them, while very conspicuously (to me, at least, after my weeks of analysis on the issue) leaving me out. Personally, I feel I've genuinely added as much to the conversation as anybody, and a lot more than some. In any event, why should I mention them again?

so, i have no doubt, in any of the posters that i recommended, that your view would be fairly represented.

You may have a point there.

but often i think you (and especially others like El Sordo), get very mean-spirited and vicious.

First of all, you've basically accused me of being "very mean-spirited and vicious." Is this not correct? Well, we can see it's correct. It's in your words, directly quoted above.

Having made that accusation, I would challenge you to prove it. Or perhaps you might want to retract it.

Just because I've shot down a bunch of theories that didn't hold water, I don't count that as "mean-spirited and vicious." I've tried to do so in as nice and patient a way as possible. If there have been a couple of occasions on which I've lost patience with somebody (and I know there's been an occasion or two over the past month of discussing this), it's been after being ignored (as in your last post) or insulted several times myself.

I can't tell you the number of times I've been insulted, called names ("Obot! Troll!), personally attacked, had my motives questioned, given the "Welcome to Free Republic" (about a year and a half ago) treatment, etc.

And I'm not alone in this. As far as I can see, every single person on FR who's failed to buy into the birther theories has been personally attacked. And yes, the ridicule has sometimes flowed both ways, but most of it, as far as I see, has been directed towards those of us who would just like to hang on to a piece of reality before we all go proclaiming that the man currently occupying the Office of President of the United States took two years to have his birth certificate forged by a complete amateur (which is pretty much what World Net Daily, Alex Jones, etc. are claiming).

As another FReeper once said during the past month, "Do people not think the President of the United States can afford a decent forger?"

In an ideal world, you would think that I and others who've contributed to the analysis would be thanked for helping us all get closer to the truth about the matter. I don't mind not being thanked, but I must confess that the level of personal attack has sometimes left me a bit tired.

People like Butterdizillion and Satindoll are patriots, not crackpots, and deserve respect, even if you disagree with them.

I respect butterdezillion (and in fact just quite pointedly said so), and I respect Satindoll as well.

Am I not a patriot also? Are those of us who don't buy into the birther theories not patriots? Why do you leave us out? Do we not deserve some respect as well?

...i have never seen an article by you, only criticisms.

I find this to be splitting hairs. Other people write criticisms of the birth certificate. I've written criticisms of the criticisms, and very substantive ones at that. Why do you not consider content that I've written to be content?

I endorse people i think add to the debate. And i think the curving letters linked in post #28, is definitive. you don’t. we disagree.

We disagree because I tested the theory, and found it to fail. I posted on it in detail one night after someone made the claim that my posts had all been shot down and had no merit at all. But most likely you missed the discussion on that (which I certainly can't fault you for), which was here:

my analysis that the curved-letters theory is not true

Swordmaker's objections

My detailed reply to Swordmaker's objections

Swordmaker still insists that the text doesn't curve

I point out again that no one has explained, or can explain, the points that I and William Tell have raised without admitting the existence of the curve.

I respect that you have much greater technical knowledge than i do. and you write much better.

I really appreciate that statement, and will definitely henceforth count you a friend for having made it. :-)

and yes, some of the points, like the “face” in the signature, i even think are silly. but, even things like the lack of left margins, and tabs, in his LFBC, compared to all the other samples we have, add up to a very large pot of fraud.

Except for the facts that 1) a lack of left margins is weak evidence to start with, and 2) we have other examples of birth certificates from the same era - the Nordyke twins! - who didn't use the tab stops either.

and the missing page 11 from the divorce records, the missing early years of SAD’s passport files, missing kindergarden records, etc., and MANY MANY more, are too much for coincidence. it’s enemy action. someone has been scrubbing and hiding.

Ah. Now we reach a point of agreement. I fully agree that there are some suspicious, and bad, and wrong things about Mr. Obama (many of them, in fact), and that both the White House and the main stream media have done and will do whatever they can to gloss over any imperfections whatsoever. That process has been evident from the very beginning. It's evident even in the coverage of the fact that Michelle Obama is going through staffers like a tornado through mud huts. If it'd been Laura Bush, she would've been portrayed as a vicious bitch. Because it's Michelle Obama, it's due to " the pressure and high expectations of working in an operation known for its polish and discipline."

i simply want to know WHAT [is being hidden]. and i truly wish you, with your superior skills, would HELP !!! ...you could actually make a real difference, in the future of our country. i have no doubt there is a coverup. and that it will eventually come out. but probably too late. YOU could change that.

But I have been helping, or trying to, as much as I can. I've spent untold hours analyzing everything possible about this certificate. And tough, honest analysis and investigation is the only way we could arrive at a solid proof of any shenanigans.

Believe me, if I found anything that I could really identify as being genuine evidence of tampering in Obama's LFBC, you would hear about it from me. And if I do, you will. But we are running out of possibilities.

But in my view, even identifying theories that aren't going to stick is a service as well. If we don't have anything that would hold up in a court of law - and so far, I honestly haven't found anything that would - then I think it's helpful for us to know that.

and both Longbow and Steel, i disagree with, but respect. i have no problem with scholarly disagreement.

Well, we agree Palin should get in the race and be our next President, so that makes you an uber FRiend in my book ;)

...i have never seen an article by you, only criticisms. (if i missed them, i am sorry. but again, in any sample, your views are very often present.) I endorse people i think add to the debate.

I gotta tell you, I think your reading Mr. Winston all wrong. In terms of truly adding to the debate, he has contributed far more than I (or most people). He is one of the few people who take a contrarian view to the birther conspiracy theories, yet really does get down in the weeds and tries to argue the specifics. He has an open mind and is taking the time to counter many false claims with facts and evidence. He has not entirely dismissed all the birther claims, just rejected things that have been shown time and time again to be wrong.

i simply want to know WHAT. and i truly wish you, with your superior skills, would HELP !!! ...you could actually make a real difference, in the future of our country. i have no doubt there is a coverup. and that it will eventually come out. but probably too late. YOU could change that.

See, but he is helping. Don't you think it wise to have some skeptical viewpoints here? I mean, with all the misinformation that gets regurgitated in an online forum like this, without someone like Mr. Winston you'd simply have a giant echo chamber with no one around to call out that which has been shown to be wrong over and over and over again. I think if you and other birthers regarded Mr. Winston as a skeptic rather than an adversary you'd find he could really be a useful source of information.

As for me, I just think the whole thing is bunk. If you start with the notion that a dark, treasonous conspiracy is afoot, it is easy to over analyze everything and turn minor and insignificant errors, blemishes, clerical mistakes, etc, into a massive web of conspiracies. If I start with the premise that my neighbor is an axe murderer and truly believe it to be the case, I could find all sorts of silly little things to piece together into the conspiracy - even when all those little things really mean absolutely nothing.

I do not think it helpful to the conservative cause to be pushing conspiracy theories like this. If some people want to spend their time on it, fine, but I can assure you it is never going to amount to anything and it makes anyone associated with it look a bit loopy. The 2012 election will not turn on birth certificates, it will almost entirely be about the economy. Our energies need to be focused on supporting Paul Ryan, honing a Medicare message that the voters won't reject, arguing that the social welfare state needs to be reformed and curtailed. Every moment wasted on birth certificates is just that much less time focused on what the upcoming elections will really be about.