Posted on 05/01/2011 10:49:54 AM PDT by Signalman
Take care of your transmission Oil-change shops push fluid changes that aren't needed May 1, 2007
BY MARK PHELAN FREE PRESS COLUMNIST The $14.99 oil change Linda Good wanted for her 2001 Dodge Voyager ended up costing her more than $100 and buying her a new set of worries. A Madison Heights oil-change shop sold her a transmission fluid change that is almost never necessary, experts say.
"For customers, it's basically throwing your money away," said Daniel Black, Chrysler senior manager of automatic transmission engineering. Despite that, many service stations -- including leading national chains -- offer the procedure. There's no telling how many people pay for it every day. After the oil change, the service attendant said the Voyager's automatic transmission fluid looked dirty and should be changed. Good, who relies on the minivan for her housecleaning, Avon sales and home caregiver businesses, took his advice. The rough, clunky shifts began before she got to the first traffic light. Good cleans my house and knows I drive cars for a living, so she called and asked me how much trouble she was in. Potentially plenty, and it could happen to you. "We don't recommend a" transmission fluid "change in the life of the vehicle," Black said. "The risks are leaks, putting the wrong fluid in, over-filling or under-filling." A bungled fluid change can destroy an automatic transmission or void the manufacturer's warranty on the delicate and expensive component. "As a general rule of thumb, newer transmission designs are sealed for life," said Tim Miskotten, who leads North American business for ZF AG, the German company that is the world's largest independent transmission maker. ZF supplies gearboxes to Ford, Audi, BMW Jaguar and other leading automakers. "You don't need to change the fluid in the normal life of a vehicle," Miskotten said.
Chrysler makes its own transmissions, and its minivans routinely cover 150,000 miles in service as Las Vegas taxis without a transmission fluid change, Black said. "They're our toughest customers," because of constant stop-and-go driving and 24-hour-a-day operation in the blazing desert heat, he said. Black wouldn't diagnose Good's vehicle over the phone, but he said rough shifting after a fluid change could be caused by a refill with the wrong fluid. While few vehicles ever need their transmission fluid changed, even national auto service chains like Jiffy Lube offer the service as routine maintenance. On the rare occasions the fluid actually should be changed, it should be done only by a technician who's certified to work on automatic transmissions and has access to specialized tools and the exact fluid the manufacturer specifies, ZF's Miskotten said.
"You can't just go to the service station and pick up a quart," he said. Each transmission requires fluid produced precisely to formula, he said. "You absolutely have to have the fluid that's specified. It's no longer the case where" an oil shop "says 'We have ATF.' " Using the wrong fluid can lead to rough shifts and noisy operation, he said.
"The correct fluid is most important for shift quality," Black said. It's also vital to fill the transmission to precisely the right level, both experts said. Transmission fluid levels are much more exacting than engine oil, where you can miss the sweet spot by a pint or more with no consequences. "If a vehicle is under-filled and operated in cold weather, you could have a transmission failure," Black said.
Even transmission specialists don't do fluid changes very frequently, said Barry Bryan, owner of American Transmission in Troy. "I check the owner's manual," Bryan said. "If the manufacturer says the fluid never needs to be changed, I agree." Changing the transmission fluid doesn't help if there's already damage, said Bryan, who has owned his station since 1985 and has 40 years' experience working on transmissions. "A problem in the fluid is a sign of other trouble."
After Good had problems with the minivan, she went back to the shop, where she was told she needed more fluid and told if she had more questions to go to a nearby shop under the same ownership. At the second shop she was told to go to a transmission specialist. Mo Dia, who owns Major Oil, where Good had her van serviced, said he recommends a change when fluid is the wrong color or has a burnt smell, adding that the shop does not change fluid if the owner's manual says it is not necessary.
"Does that mean it was a mistake if somebody changed the fluid in a Voyager where Chrysler says it's not necessary?" I asked. "If the vehicle is over 100,000 miles, you don't go by the owner's manual," Dia said. Chrysler said the owner's manual advice still applies after 100,000 miles. Dia initially said he kept every type of transmission fluid in stock. Asked about ATF +4, the fluid Chrysler specifies for the 2001 Voyager, he said, "We have an additive, Smart Blend, to convert regular automatic transmission fluid to ATF +4." "We haven't tested that additive," Chrysler spokeswoman Heather May said. "It's not something we'd recommend." Ten days after the fluid change, Good's Voyager still has rough shifts, but she's comforted knowing that it could be much worse.
"I thought my transmission was going," she said. "That would be a big expense."
Dealership, or stealerships as we call them, are some of the biggest crooks in business, up there with the corrupt politicians. That is why I never buy new vehicles nor take any of my vehicles to a stealership.
No reason? Really?
Two simple yes or no questions for you:
1#. Do you think dirty oil and metallic particles are not remaining and clinging to engine parts after you quickly screw the drain plug back in?
Yes or no?
#2. Allowing engine oil to drain thoroughly does not help eliminate a good percentage of dirty oil and metallic particles?
Yes or no?
“Chrysler senior manager of automatic transmission engineering”
Funny, Chrysler’s manual says to change the fluid and filter and that is a required item to maintain the warrantee.
It is not hard to change the transmission fluid. This article makes it sound like voo-doo.
Yes or no?
Never had a problem with it. I didn't say quickly, I said wait until you no longer have a stream of oil, and that it drips. Usually about a drip every 15-20 seconds. That all depends on the oil temperature and recent use. That's also why I said to do it on an engine that has not been recently run.
The best way I've found is to drain it after it's sat, but still warm - an hour or so after driving, or even overnight in warm weather. There are spots in your engine that will never gravity drain completely - tops of rocker arms, little valleys, etc..., so it's overkill, you're still going to mix old with new.
A good filter and quality oil will do you better than wasting two hours of your time. Between my dad and me, we have over 80 years combined (50 for him and 30 for me) of anecdotal evidence that this works. Never lost an engine due to oil problems.
#2. Allowing engine oil to drain thoroughly does not help eliminate a good percentage of dirty oil and metallic particles?
Yes or no?
See #1.
What a wonderful Einstein quote!
(PS-I donated the first day of the FReepathon)
I knew you wouldn’t answer.
I asked you 2 direct simple questioning, and you compltely evaded both.
See my tag line.
No reason to leave the drain plug out for two hours
I asked you this:
1#. Do you think dirty oil and metallic particles are not remaining and clinging to engine parts after you quickly screw the drain plug back in?
Yes or no?
#2. Allowing engine oil to drain thoroughly does not help eliminate a good percentage of dirty oil and metallic particles?
Yes or no?
I know why you evaded the questions, because you were wrong, and you couldn't admit it and instead danced around and evaded the 2 questions.
That's pretty dang pathetic.
The world has been in chaos since Eve got Adam kicked out of the garden of Eden. If you can avoid one less headache I say read the post on transmission fluid. By the way do you know who the first carpenter was?
You anywhere near Albuquerque? ;-)
My rule of thumb is to never change the fluid if I wasn't the original owner of the car. Yes, filters and add new, where necessary, but never a total pressure flush. I learned from someone else's issue. That pressure flush, combined with the detergents in the new fluid, caused some gunk that was previously causing no harm, to break free and clog some important passages, and thus transmission failure.
THANK YOU!! I could have sworn the article was about transmissions and transmission fluid, not oil changes! It’s hard to sift through the posts that are correctly speaking to the article.
Leading question, and putting words into my mouth. I never said I quickly put the drain plug in. Direct answer? Yes, simply waiting for the majority of the oil to drain and quickly screwing the drain plug in will leave crap in your engine. I said your method was not necessary, and used my own experience over 30 years of my life, and 50 of my father's. We've never had an engine fail due to oil problems.
#2. Allowing engine oil to drain thoroughly does not help eliminate a good percentage of dirty oil and metallic particles?
Yes, draining thoroughly works.
You stated NO reason...
I certainly did. It was my experience. Which is what you stated as your reason.
I meant no malice, and apologize for calling your method unnecessary, as after I re-read what I posted, I realized that it would tick me off if it were done to me.
IYAS9YAS lets his engine oil drain for 4 minutes or so. I allow mine to drain for 2+ hours. Which one use has eliminated a better percentage of dirty oil and metallic particles from their engine?
lol...
Actually, on warm oil (not hot), it takes about 25-30 minutes. Either way, unless we both tear the engines down, take them to the shop, have them boiled clean, and then put them back together, we're both leaving used oil and crud in the engine.
Wow...You again evaded the question yet again... lol
Thanks for the laughs.
Wow...You again evaded the question yet again... lol
Thanks for the laughs.
Thank you so much for your donation and your support of Free Republic. It is greatly appreciated.
Glad you liked the quote, too. :-)
:o
I added that quote to my favorite quotes journal. I’m always on the lookout for a gem like that!
Again, you used a leading question, and put words in I did not use. Show me where I said that my oil drained for 4 minutes or so.
I stated my process took 25-30 minutes. So, certainly, you drain yours for 2 hours, and I drain my for 1/2 hour, there will likely be more drained from your engine. How much? Really, it's negligible. You figure eventually those drops will peter out to one a minute, then so on, so really, how much more are you draining? I'll bet it wouldn't fill a tablespoon. There's likely more than that sitting in those other spots in your engine that don't drain with gravity.
On top of that, many oil drain plugs do not sit directly on the bottom of the pan at exactly the lowest point, and those that don't can leave anywhere up to 1/4 inch of oil in your pan. Do you take your pan off every time and clean it out, too?
So, I answered your question again. You still keep coming at me like I slapped your face. I already apologized for that, but in your zeal to get me back, you likely didn't read that.
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