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Rep. Allen West Challenges Conservative Mothers: ‘Spartan Women…Raise Spartan Men’ (VIDEO)
The Blaze ^ | 4-24-2011 | Scott Baker

Posted on 04/24/2011 11:29:31 AM PDT by Falcon28

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To: Reagan Man
Stopping Roe v Wade is the biggest challenge we pro-lifers face today.

Roe v. Wade was a court decision in one particular case. A clearly unconstitutional decision.

It was an black event in history, not the making of a law, nor the veto of a law, nor the amending of our Constitution.

So, your statement would amount to something along the lines of saying, "stopping the invasion of Constantinople by Muslims is the biggest challenge we Christians face." It's ancient history, with lessons to be learned, perhaps, but you can't "stop it," unless you have a time machine.

Now, if you had said "Stopping the practice of child-killing is the biggest challenge we face as a nation today," I would have agreed with you.

And then we could talk about how to do that.

Step one is to return to basic principles, and to get them squared away in our own minds. Step two is to make a commitment not to compromise those principles any longer. Especially when it comes to who we support for public office.

Anything else is just empty talk.

101 posted on 04/24/2011 7:34:56 PM PDT by EternalVigilance (You say your'e conservative, but you support liberals. Should I believe your words or your actions?)
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To: EternalVigilance
You're couching the abortion issue in your own terms and reaching your own conclusions that frankly, will lead nowhere. Btw, this is not about me. This is about how best to handle the abortion issue so we can attain the most success.

While abortion is legal, its also unethical, immoral and imo, unconstitutional. In order to make abortion illegal, you'll have to get a law that overturns RvW, or makes it irrelevant. If we could get a interim step on a state by state basis (yes I know your opinion on that) that would seriously slow down the level of annual abortions. But that wouldn't end abortion on demand in all the states. A national right to life amendment, what Reagan called, a personhood amendment to the US Constitution, would accomplish that objective. That is my end goal.

After today and after this thread, I don't know what your end goal is anymore when it comes to the abortion issue. You offer no plan of action, just continue with the status quo.

102 posted on 04/24/2011 7:40:34 PM PDT by Reagan Man ("In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem.")
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To: Reagan Man
You're couching the abortion issue in your own terms and reaching your own conclusions that frankly, will lead nowhere.

I'm couching it entirely in the clear terms of the natural law, and the Declaration of Independence, and all of the U.S. Constitution's stated purposes, and the explicit imperative requirements of the Amendments to that supreme law of the land.

If that leads "nowhere," the country cannot be saved.

Because if our elected officers will not keep their oaths to support and defend the Constitution, they've effectively overthrown our free republic.

With the help of lots of folks who call themselves "Christians," and "pro-life," and "conservative," and "republican."

103 posted on 04/24/2011 7:58:01 PM PDT by EternalVigilance (You say your'e conservative, but you support liberals. Should I believe your words or your actions?)
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To: Reagan Man
While abortion is legal, its also unethical, immoral and imo, unconstitutional.

If it's not constitutional, it can't be legal.

And in this particular instance, let's not forget that we're not talking about something that's hazy or murky. We're talking about the defense of the God-given, unalienable right to life of every person, the primary purpose for the existence of all government, according to the framers of our republic.

104 posted on 04/24/2011 8:01:00 PM PDT by EternalVigilance (You say your'e conservative, but you support liberals. Should I believe your words or your actions?)
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To: Reagan Man
If we could get a interim step on a state by state basis (yes I know your opinion on that) that would seriously slow down the level of annual abortions.

It was the states that opened this Pandora's Box. But, in any case, you're not going to stop it nationally or state by state if you've handed away the only real moral, constitutional, and legal argument against the practice, which is that you're destroying an innocent person.

Let me remind you that the state constitutions all forbid the killing of innocent persons and require the equal protection of the laws as well.

105 posted on 04/24/2011 8:04:26 PM PDT by EternalVigilance (You say your'e conservative, but you support liberals. Should I believe your words or your actions?)
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To: Reagan Man
After today and after this thread, I don't know what your end goal is anymore when it comes to the abortion issue. You offer no plan of action, just continue with the status quo.

My plan of action is simple, and if followed would be 100% effective. That is to convince Christians, pro-lifers, conservatives, republicans, to quit giving their political support to those who compromise the most important requirement of the oath of office, which the founders described as the very raison d'etre of human government.

If they would do that, the holocaust would end.

If they won't? Well, I'll give you the words of the man who penned the the founding paragraph we find in the Declaration, who went on to become our third President:

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that his justice cannot sleep forever."

-- Thomas Jefferson


106 posted on 04/24/2011 8:13:41 PM PDT by EternalVigilance (You say your'e conservative, but you support liberals. Should I believe your words or your actions?)
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To: BenKenobi

And nowhere did Allan West ever advocate adopting the Spartan system. What he was talking about was inculcating the more nobler aspects of character that was seen in the Spartan people.


107 posted on 04/24/2011 9:22:43 PM PDT by Optimus Prime (Do liberals even qualify as sentient beings?)
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To: Optimus Prime
And they were betrayed in the Peloponnesian War by Alcibiades

They were hardly unique in this. Al betrayed everybody in the War. Multiple times. A truly amazing career.

108 posted on 04/25/2011 3:38:22 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Optimus Prime
Really, now? He admires the instilling of courage in their children. That doesn't mean he wants to form a totalitarian government or take nine-year-old children and inculcate them in a military lifestyle. Talk about the leap of logic.

Okay, how far do you want to take this? Would you ever say the same about other "reprehensible" cultures which also excelled in installing "courage" in their children such as the Nazis (fighing to the bitter end in Berlin) and Stalin's Soviets (Stalingrad)? Lest you dismiss my examples perhaps you should reexamaine the characteristics of Spartan society: compulsory state schooling, dictatorship, attacks on the rights of parents, anti-materialistim and and anti-individualism, and pervasive militarization of society from the womb to tomb. Each of these was a model for modern totalitarian societies.

Installing "courage" in children is fine but the mistake all many conservatives like West make is that they assume that this "good" trait was no intimately interonnected with the "reprehensible" traits not only in Sparta but these other cultures. You can't have one without the others.

I'll take the Athenian values any day over Spartan "courage."

109 posted on 04/25/2011 7:18:44 AM PDT by Captain Kirk
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To: Optimus Prime

Typo. The sentence should read “Installing ‘courage’ in children is fine but the mistake all many conservatives like West make is that they seem to assume that this “good” trait was not intimately interonnected with the ‘reprehensible’ traits in Sparta and these other cultures.”


110 posted on 04/25/2011 8:09:33 AM PDT by Captain Kirk
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To: Captain Kirk
Amazing strawman arguments you have there. Particularly stunning as the very same arguments you make can be used against Athenian "values". Yes, Athens had a lot to commend it. But at the same time, a lot of those good things were likewise intimately interconnected with its reprehensible traits. Such as the way they treated women, which was a result of Athenian laws. Wives were little better than chattel, and they were that way because of how Athenian law and society viewed the purpose of marriage, with the wife little more than a vehicle by which the Athenian male can produce a legal heir. As a result 12 and 13 years old girls were married off to men in their 30's. Once married, they were the prisoners of their husbands, and little better then women in the Muslim world today.

Sparta attacked the rights of the parents? Sure. Athens, however, had no problems with rampant pederasty. Where was the Athenian system when it came to protecting young children from the predations of perverse adults? All things considered, I'd rather have a society which inducted my child into a state controlled school as opposed to one which finds it acceptable for my child to be the sexual plaything of adult men. Remarkable "values", there.

Athens is also a cautionary example about the dangers of pure democracy. It only ever really worked under Pericles. Any system of government which is dependent on having an exceptional man in charge is doomed to failure, as Athenian democracy failed. There's a reason our Founding Fathers elected for a Representative Republic for our system of government, as opposed to Athenian style democracy, as over time Athens eventually exhibited all of the worst traits of mob rule.
111 posted on 04/26/2011 8:31:22 PM PDT by Optimus Prime (Do liberals even qualify as sentient beings?)
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To: Captain Kirk

I take it you’ve never served in the Army or Marine Corps in combat arms. Military cultures, including Sparta, Persia, Rome, Carthage and, yes, even Germany are often used as examples of peoples who sacrificed and held strong for their countries. We do *not* use them as examples of how to build societies, but examples of how to sacrifice yourself for others. Rand’s devotees notwithstanding, most Americans believe these to be good qualities.

If you listened to *any* of Col. West’s other speeches, you wouldn’t be making such ridiculous claims. He’s not a whacked out statist who believes the state should raise men, he believes *mothers* should raise them. Good grief.

I swear, some people could see Jesus return in the clouds tomorrow and they’d be royally hacked because they think either Palin or Paul should have that position. That may not be you, but don’t be a libtard and take minor speeches way out of context and then spew stupidity all over the net.

BTW, I’m a libertarian, not a conservative, but I understand that you can be a free society, support free markets and not allow open borders and free trade with closed societies who want to kill us. Paul’s foreign policy is all wrong and Palin’s monetary policy is all wrong. West gets these right.


112 posted on 04/27/2011 4:44:40 AM PDT by cizinec
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