[conimbricenses]

If in 1861 the Southern states wanted to secede, they should have put it to the vote of the people. I don’t mean just the white males, but all of the people including the slaves.

Considering that women and blacks generally could not vote in the northern states at the time any more than the could in the southern ones, your stipulation is historically unrealistic and thus reeks of contrivance.

By the exact same electoral standards of the day used in every state of the union, at least some of the southern states did indeed put the matter to a referendum. I believe Texas, Virginia, and Tennessee were among the ones that did, and it passed in all three. By landslide margins.

By modern standards we may fault them for not permitting women and blacks to vote. But by those exact same standards, we should also throw out every single election ever held in the United States between 1776 and August 26, 1920 when women's suffrage was finally passed.

[Old Teufel Hunden]

"Considering that women and blacks generally could not vote in the northern states at the time any more than the could in the southern ones, your stipulation is historically unrealistic and thus reeks of contrivance."

You are incorrect:

"State constitutions protecting voting rights for blacks included those of Delaware (1776), [5] Maryland (1776), [6] New Hampshire (1784), [7] and New York (1777). [8] (Constitution signer Rufus King declared that in New York, “a citizen of color was entitled to all the privileges of a citizen. . . . [and] entitled to vote.”) [9] Pennsylvania also extended such rights in her 1776 constitution, [10] as did Massachusetts in her 1780 constitution."

http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/Newsletters/BlackHistory03.pdf