Looking for Freeper Help on Building Fire Safety Systems (Vanity)

Self | 7/21/10 | Alberta's Child

[Alberta's Child]

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm just looking for some input on a question related to a peculiar building configuration.

[TexasCajun]

I’m sure it will depend on the state/city you are in?

[Alberta's Child]

Right. Some of the requirements in question depend on the state and city, but my issue appears to involve the proper design and installation of the system under national fire safety standards. In other words . . . there’s no question about what the state and city require for the fire safety system, but I do have a question about the design and installation of the system that is being required. The municipal fire safety official is requiring the installation of a system that meets National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) standards, so I assume the design/installation standards would apply across all states.

[Walmartian]

Get your answer from a local fire protection contractor. He will know the codes in your area.

[dila813]

You are going to have to get a contractor to do this and they will engineer a solution for you.

Unfortunately, because they are telling you to install a wet system this is custom for your building.

They have to take into account expansion and contraction with building movement. Otherwise the pipe will break and you will have water damage.

The fire panel is the easiest part, Honeywell, United Technologies and a bunch of other companies make these systems to monitor your building.

Installation is dependent on the system selected. In order to meet these standards you have to have an approved panel and follow the manufacturer’s instructions. A contractor will be liable for the work.

[Alberta's Child]

Right. I should clarify . . . the building already has a wet sprinkler system. The local FD is requiring an upgrade to a monitored alarm system — but only for part of the building (detectors in the basement, alarms and strobes in the above-ground floors). My question is whether the detectors in the basement can be installed above the drop ceiling or if they must — by the very nature of their function — protrude below the ceiling into the basement itself.

[greatplains]

Go to the following link:

http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/list_of_codes_and_standards.asp?cookie%5Ftest=1

Then click on NFPA 13. You need to check with the local FD to see if they go above and beyond the NFPA code.

[dila813]

If these are smoke sensors, they usually put these below the drop ceiling but this can vary based on the type of room and how it is used.

Lots of things have to be taken into account. You have to have a contractor come out and survey it. If they get it wrong they will have to fix it at their expense.

If your building burns down and their code compliance or system is faulty, your insurance company can sue them.

You should also get a discount on insurance. You may want to check with them if their requirements for the discount are more than the fire marshal’s. You may be able to come out of this better than you think.

[Walmartian]

Are you talking about the sprinkler head?

[Alberta's Child]

No. The sprinkler heads are low-profile heads that are hidden above the ceiling tiles with just the circular “plate” showing. I’m talking about the smoke and/or fire detector itself that is connected to the alarms upstairs and the monitoring service off-site.

[Alberta's Child]

Right — thanks. We’ve already got a substantial discount on the building’s insurance because of the sprinklers. The cost of installing the alarm system isn’t all that high, but there is an ongoing monthly fee that is paid to the company that will monitor it (ADT, for example).

[12Gauge687]

I am an architect in Chicago presently assisting the local building department in writing the new Chicago Building Code. The new code will be more stringent than the existing since the new one will be based upon the International Building Code, now employed in many metro areas.

There are three types of wet sprinkler systems: 13, 13D and 13R. Most multi-family and ligh hazard structures require a Type 13 system since 13D and 13R do not provide the same level of protection. In Chicago, new single-family combustible structures will be permitted as long as they are equipped with Type 13 systems.

Most manufacturers and installers can provide info on installation and monitoring of NFPA 13 systems.

[mad_as_he$$]

AC, make sure you are in compliance with the building dept also. The FD may give you only PART of the requirements.

This is best left to local experts.

[mad_as_he$$]

Also, you may not be able to buy fire insurance unless there is a sign off from a local company. Especially if you deal with FM.

[george76]

Depending on the local fire code and the local fire marshal, they may require both protection inside the hidden spaces as well as below the fake ceiling. To minimize the chance of a hidden fire building up —heat and gases—out of sight.

The local installer likely is licensed to design on paper the specs for the fire Marshall to stamp and sign off ( approve ).

There may be water pressure and volume issues : so many sprinkler heads per gallons per second type stuff.

They may also reguire exterior piping for a fire truck to attach their lines in the unlikely event that water pressure to the building drops ( from a water main break elsewhere, etc ).

Electrical sensors for smoke, rapid heat rise ( in garages & boiler rooms ), water flow valves, carbon monoxide, and such may help.

[dila813]

They put the cost of they system in the monthly rate in the hopes that later on when the system is paid for out of your monthly rate that they can rake in the profit.

Typically a system is paid off in the first 6 months and for the next year and half it is nearly all profit.

You shouldn’t pay more than 19.00 per month for monitoring.

Sometimes paying the contractor to put in a system you fully own is worth it in the long run.

[Rodamala]

In Chicago, new single-family combustible structures will be permitted as long as they are equipped with Type 13 systems.

Are you f'ing kidding me? Single family residences built in Chicago will be required to have wet line fire protection?

Which Alderman's nephew works for Serv-Pro?

[12Gauge687]

Yes, this follows International Building Code standards now being adopted throughout the US and Canada. In Chicago, new frame structures within setbacks were not allowed in the old code unless accomodation was made to use non-combustible sheathing, typically Type X gypsum board and cement siding, on metal framing. New code will allow builders to use wood frame with sprinkler system.

Some of us wanted to follow NYC code, which does not allow any combustible construction (due to proximity of buildings to one another), in order to get rid of the sprinkler requirement.

[Alberta's Child]

Thanks for all the great input. This makes a lot of sense. My original question was whether the detectors needed to be installed beneath the ceiling tiles or whether they could be installed above them, but there's a possibility that they will be needed in BOTH places.

We'll be dealing with a number of prospective fire alarm contractors on this, so I'm sure it will be done right. I just need to be prepared to ask the right questions when the time cones. Thanks!

[Alberta's Child]

Thanks a bunch, 12Guage687. The sprinkler system was installed some years ago, and what the FD is now requiring is an alarm system comprised of on-site warning devices (horns and strobes) for the first two floors of the small building, connected to a detector system in the basement and an off-site monitoring service. The whole purpose of this requirement is to protect the occupants of the first and second floors (and notify the monitoring company) in the event of a fire in the basement. This measure is needed because there are no windows in the basement, and a fire there could theoretically smolder or burn for hours without anyone knowing about it.