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To: narses
The Word of God. Maybe you heard of that, maybe not.

Oh I've heard of it, about a dozen different varieties. Is that the Word of God that says I'm going to Hell if I make love to my wife without wanting a baby?

Or is marital sex just for the sheer pleasure of it not a sin? Which one is it? You can't all be right. Right?

Or is it the Word of God that says I'm going to Hell because I enjoy a good Scotch or Bourbon?

Is it the Word of God that says I can't dance if I want to?

Or is it the Word of God that says dancing is OK?

Like I said, when y'all get that silly 'doctrine' thing figured out you let me know. Maybe then I'll darken the door of one of them churches everybody's talking about.

Until then I'll do what Jesus told me to do. "Go into a closet and pray." You remember that part of the Bible. Don't you?

45 posted on 05/18/2010 6:48:56 PM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: Lurker; narses
Calm down guys, I think you're in danger of misunderstanding each other!

I think lurker's quote is just intended as a summary, and if you think about it Narses, "treating other people as objects" is a pretty good description of sin. Anyway, Christianity has spent 2000 years trying to do something about that, not define the problem! And Lurker, there is only one true Word of God. The problem, as always, is that truth has to be interpreted. There's nothing wrong with that - millions of preachers do it all the time! They have every right to tell you what they think, and you would be well advised to listen, but remember they are interpreting the Word, not giving you the Word itself (in spite of what a lot of them fondly believe). In the end you are responsible for your own soul.

67 posted on 05/19/2010 2:53:08 AM PDT by Vanders9
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To: Lurker; narses
y'all get that silly 'doctrine' thing figured out you let me know.

There are heretical communions of faith that do not have any of your questions figured out. In Catholic and generally authentic Christian moral teaching, they are figured out as follows:

going to Hell if I make love to my wife without wanting a baby

The sexual instinct in you wants to make a baby every time you enjoy sex, provided you are blessed with healthy physiology. You may nevertheless wish not to have a baby on some indirect, intellectualized level, for example because you don't want to deal with the economic consequence of having one. It is not a sin to consider consequences of your actions. It is however falling short of an ideal, and so a sin. The ideal is not do do things that are improvident, for example, have sex when a baby would not be desired. These are, of course, states of your mind that might be hard to sort out outside of the confessional. I usually lay them out for the priest as they are and ask God to forgive whatever is sinful, if anything.

Use of contraception is, of course, a conscious act, rather than simply contradictory desires. That is sinful regardless of anything else: it is deliberate disruption of sexual act that deepens rather than resolves conflicts in your mind. Don't do it.

If you cannot afford a baby or have medical reasons not to want one, abstain from sex during fertility periods. That would be a rational way to make love to your wife, by respecting her body and yours.

Above all, seek advice of competent people. I detect a confrontational tone in your post, directed at organized religion; that means that your are making a mistake of avoiding advice you need in order to sort out your sex life.

Scotch or Bourbon [or dancing]

... are all fine, so long as you remain in control of your faculties, so drink, if you so choose, in moderation.

Go into a closet and pray

Judging by your main question, you certainly should pray in the bedroom.

This is one advice among many. The scripture also records countless examples of people seeking advice from people with spiritual authority, and communal prayer.

69 posted on 05/19/2010 5:38:01 AM PDT by annalex
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To: Lurker

I take it you are basing your questions on some Evangelicals I know.

First of all, the Bible is not primarily about what is not allowed, spoiling your pleasure. The Ten Commandments are one of the few places where negatives are used, and I think we can agree on most of it: it’s not really nice to steal, kill people, wreck other people’s marriages, and the like.

But the Bible, including the Old Testament, is more about what to choose if you want to be happy. Choose God.

Moreover even the negative commandments are not designed to deprive people of pleasure, but to make them realize what to avoid if they want to avoid being unhappy, as well as turning away from God. Because committing sins doesn’t really make you happy, not in the long run.

But as for some of your questions, no, the Bible does not say that it is evil to drink in moderation or to dance. Some Evangelical groups swear off drinking and dancing, but as far as I’m concerned, that’s voluntary. Nothing wrong with it, if that’s what they want to do, but it is not required by the Bible or by traditional Christianity.

I don’t notice that such people are noticeably less happy because they don’t have a glass of wine with their lunch. Personally, I generally have one beer a day, or wine or gin & tonic if that’s what’s being served. I’ve gotten drunk twice in my life, and didn’t find it much fun.

What’s noticeable is that most of the good Christians whom I know, Protestant or Catholic, generally enjoy life as much as or more than those without any religion.


71 posted on 05/19/2010 8:16:23 AM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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